robert young

P3d in VR - using eyes only?

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I've been thinking about a VR headset but having tried one at a demo show, I do find them rather claustrophobic and my spectacles got in the way too. I know this seems bizarre, but lately I've been training myself to use eyes only to merge stereo images to get a really quite impressive 3d image. At first I thought it would be harmful or create some permanent damage, but I feel no ill affects at all and can now almost instantly switch on and off. At first it is difficult to eliminate the two outside images so as to concentrate on the "middle" combined image, but it gets easier and easier the more I practice.

I had considered a now old fashioned Nvidia pair of 3d glasses but the monitor required is quite hard to come by nowadays, and they are expensive and not very large. Has anyone else tried using the native 3d VR images in P3d as a means to use eyes only? I don't even know if it is possible, as it seems you need to actually connect the rift or vive to get P3d to switch on its 3d imagery. I'm also a bit confused about how you use those two products to gain access to switches and pop up panels. Is it always necessary to use the extra controllers or can you get by just with the basic VR hardware?

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If you mean by "eyes only", not wearing you glasses using a VR headset then the answer is yes "eyes only" is fine. or at least for me it is. typically I need glasses to watch TV but I don't wear my glasses with the Samsung Odyssey+. Although, if I wanted to I could without issue.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry I explained it badly. I meant using my eyes (plus spectacles - as I am short-sighted) in order to "see" a 3d image as presented by a flight simulator or other 3d software, without the need for a VR headset, which kind of does the same thing but more reliably. There are quite a few websites, often connected with eye-health and development of "lazy" eye muscles, that seem to agree that the eyes are perfectly capable of converting two 2d images into a stereo image (still or moving) without any need for hardware or VR devices. I thought that might have interesting potential in P3d and other sims. As I said, it is not so much in order to save cash, but to be freed from a device slung around the head.

I've been practising this for a few weeks now and it is remarkable how quickly I've been able to watch film clips and other VR stuff on youtube and elsewhere without the use of any VR headgear. In other words, I would like to train myself to see 3d images at will. Of course we nearly all see the world in full 3d but it's a bit more challenging to convert 2 parallel stereo flat images to make them look 3d without aids, but it can be done.

Edited by robert young

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I think you refer to a method usually termed "autostereoscopic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereoscopy

I could twist my eyes into doing this (in still images) but get crazy pretty soon doing so. While my son doesn't seem to have such diffculties. Obvisouly it depends.

Kind regards, Michael

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I find this topic interesting. There are many picture books with 3d images done with a mess of pixels that looks like gibberish at first glance, until you focus awhile then a 3d image pops out at you.

-Stampee

 

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1 hour ago, robert young said:

I've been thinking about a VR headset but having tried one at a demo show, I do find them rather claustrophobic and my spectacles got in the way too. I know this seems bizarre, but lately I've been training myself to use eyes only to merge stereo images to get a really quite impressive 3d image. At first I thought it would be harmful or create some permanent damage, but I feel no ill affects at all and can now almost instantly switch on and off. At first it is difficult to eliminate the two outside images so as to concentrate on the "middle" combined image, but it gets easier and easier the more I practice.

I had considered a now old fashioned Nvidia pair of 3d glasses but the monitor required is quite hard to come by nowadays, and they are expensive and not very large. Has anyone else tried using the native 3d VR images in P3d as a means to use eyes only? I don't even know if it is possible, as it seems you need to actually connect the rift or vive to get P3d to switch on its 3d imagery. I'm also a bit confused about how you use those two products to gain access to switches and pop up panels. Is it always necessary to use the extra controllers or can you get by just with the basic VR hardware?

not sure about using eye muscle in an unnatural way, only have two eye balls so i'd treat them real nice...   there are special prescription lenses that can be ordered to snap into the HMD headset for those who don't wear contact lens, this should help with the claustrophobic feeling with glasses on.

as far as stereo viewing, VR hw provides stereoscopic vision (field of view isn't quite 100% yet but perfectly adequate) and head motion tracking which allows one to 'sit' inside the vc and interact with the 3d model as one was there (trackir in 3d with field of view only of the vc for total immersion).  look up/down/left/right, it's as if you're there, you don't see anything else like your cat or the room while flying in the vc.  

interacting within the vc is simple: p3dv4 native VR allows the mouse to move the cursor (which means the mouse should sit near the user and one gets used to finding it by muscle memory)  within the field of view.  pop up panels also are supported now, they project in front (and above) within the vc (can be moved/sized), accessed the same way in 2d, clicking on the gauge.  yoke/joystick/throttle quadrant one uses as before but rely on muscle memory or tactile ques (like velcro tape on certain keys/buttons) to operate without the need to look them directly.  

there's also the opening between the HMD headset and nose one can peek down to see what's where, if that's needed.

i use the oculus rift cv1 and it's a game changer.  hw will get better in the coming years but time not spent is time lost and i think it's a great time to jump on this vr bandwagon now as p3dv4 in vr is amazing.  

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the contributions. Yes, the technical term is indeed autostereoscopy. There are apparently almost zero reports of anyone suffering problems with what is essentially an eye muscle exercise and indeed some medics openly encourage this muscular activity for those who suffer from "lazy eye" syndrome. The problem is that however good you get at doing it there is always the problem of completely eliminating the two left and right images which are very difficult to get rid of while concentrating on the central combined image. That's of course why people buy VR headsets, because, rather like binoculars, they are much better at combining 2 images into one central image.

Thanks for the heads up on Oculus. I was under the impression that you couldn't use a mouse at all, but it seems you can now. Does this mean you can dispense with the need to buy the two extra "controllers" that are accessories to the Rift? Oh, and is the cv1 Rift the current version as widely advertised? If so perhaps I should take the plunge and give it a go.

Edited by robert young

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Posted (edited)

yes, no need for the controllers for flight sim, just the hmd and 2 tracking cameras.  although the controllers are quite impressive piece of engineering and there are some cool games using them.  tried the flyinside demo a while back, can use the controllers to virtually grab the yoke and throttles if that's what one wants to do.   cv1 is the 1st gen consumer version available now.    

when i got the rift about a year ago, i thought i had a 50/50 chance of returning it to the store as my expectations were quite low.  but i was awestruck when i sat inside the pmdg747 with the rift.  transformative experience to say the least.  i'd say give it a try, nothing to lose.

Edited by kdfw__

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  i'd say give it a try, nothing to lose.

I might do that. It all sounds a lot easier to set up than I had imagined. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, robert young said:

Thanks for the contributions. Yes, the technical term is indeed autostereoscopy. There are apparently almost zero reports of anyone suffering problems with what is essentially an eye muscle exercise and indeed some medics openly encourage this muscular activity for those who suffer from "lazy eye" syndrome. The problem is that however good you get at doing it there is always the problem of completely eliminating the two left and right images which are very difficult to get rid of while concentrating on the central combined image. That's of course why people buy VR headsets, because, rather like binoculars, they are much better at combining 2 images into one central image.

Thanks for the heads up on Oculus. I was under the impression that you couldn't use a mouse at all, but it seems you can now. Does this mean you can dispense with the need to buy the two extra "controllers" that are accessories to the Rift? Oh, and is the cv1 Rift the current version as widely advertised? If so perhaps I should take the plunge and give it a go.

I tried using the double view without the headset. It works very well don't need a headset to see in 3D and it also very clear once your eyes adjust. Problem is you can't interact with menus. I find the cross eyed technique very relaxing and it how my eyes feel anyway when I'm tired!

Problem is...and it is a big problem...you are looking AT the 3D world you are not IN the the 3D world. That is where the headsets are great. They depict the 3D world in 1:1 real world scale.

Yes no controllers needed for VR in P3D the mouse works fine and I don't think there is any controller support anyway (yet). Rift CV1 is still the current build and is ideal for flightsim because it has a peep hole so you can still see your desktop screen and hardware flight controls when needed. I peep out the hole at my ipad which has a map on it.

As for your claustrophobia, just slowly get into using the headset a few minutes at a time over many weeks. When you put the headset on, think that you are going "in" not looking "at".

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Good advice Glider1 and you are right, the experience should be "in" not "at". I take it that the complaints about low res and screen door effect are not enough to detract from what most say is a sublime experience. I'm weighing things up! Nice to have met someone who tried the dark art of using their own eyes. It's becoming clear that it doesn't cut it compared to the Oculus and I didn't really suppose it would.

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20 minutes ago, robert young said:

Good advice Glider1 and you are right, the experience should be "in" not "at". I take it that the complaints about low res and screen door effect are not enough to detract from what most say is a sublime experience. I'm weighing things up! Nice to have met someone who tried the dark art of using their own eyes. It's becoming clear that it doesn't cut it compared to the Oculus and I didn't really suppose it would.

The screen door effect and low res is a problem if you have low end hardware. Anything from a 1070-80 GPU should be good. On a 1080 you can super-sample to 1.5-1.7 combined with MSAA 8x and the image is good enough to make it highly enjoyable for anything but the biggest tubeliners that have tiny instruments to read. On a 2080-2080ti you can push super sampling up to 2.0 but there is almost no difference to 1.7. I can read a G1000 display in the cockpit no real problems on a 1080 or 2080.

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Well I have just been delivered an 8700k with a 1080ti and if that can't run things half decently I might as well give up! I sometimes use up sampling with a lowly i2700 and 1050ti and if I'm sensible even that runs pretty well. Here's hoping.

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My eyesight is not good, and I really need glasses to use the Oculus Rift.  But, I also can be rather cheap, so I really did not want to shell out $$$ for a custom set of lenses.

I came up with my own solution.  First, I cut out blue foam to fit in the "pockets" on either side of the inside of the rift.  This is the space between the inner rim of the rift ad the panel where the lenses are at.  It is sort of a semi-circular form.  The blue foam was for camping sheets of blue foam, which are about 3/4 to 1 inch thick -- available at Walmart in the camping section.

Then I found an old pair of glasses and took off the temple pieces of the glasses.  I made small holes for the end pieces in the blue foam, then inserted the end pieces in those holes.  The blue foam holds the frame, sans temples, in place inside of the Rift.  When I put on the Rift, the lenses from my (old) glasses are in place.  It works pretty well.

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8 minutes ago, tjstreak said:

My eyesight is not good, and I really need glasses to use the Oculus Rift.  But, I also can be rather cheap, so I really did not want to shell out $$$ for a custom set of lenses.

I came up with my own solution.  First, I cut out blue foam to fit in the "pockets" on either side of the inside of the rift.  This is the space between the inner rim of the rift ad the panel where the lenses are at.  It is sort of a semi-circular form.  The blue foam was for camping sheets of blue foam, which are about 3/4 to 1 inch thick -- available at Walmart in the camping section.

Then I found an old pair of glasses and took off the temple pieces of the glasses.  I made small holes for the end pieces in the blue foam, then inserted the end pieces in those holes.  The blue foam holds the frame, sans temples, in place inside of the Rift.  When I put on the Rift, the lenses from my (old) glasses are in place.  It works pretty well.

Thanks for sharing well done for showing initiative. My eyesight is getting worse as I age so might have to resort to tips like this in the future as well!

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1 hour ago, robert young said:

Well I have just been delivered an 8700k with a 1080ti and if that can't run things half decently I might as well give up! I sometimes use up sampling with a lowly i2700 and 1050ti and if I'm sensible even that runs pretty well. Here's hoping.

It is an ideal setup for VR in P3D 4.4 it will be perfect for Rift, Vive, but may not be enough for the Pimax 5K+. No-one yet has really tried out that headset that I know of in P3D 4.4. The 5K+ would be ideal for flightsim with the 200deg field of view.

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I have been using 1.6 super-sampling on my Rift with great performance, which totals to 3.456.000 pixels per eye being rendered (if I am not mistaken). The Pimax 5K has about 3.686.400 pixels per eye, so it should not be dramatically slower.

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1 hour ago, GCBraun said:

I have been using 1.6 super-sampling on my Rift with great performance, which totals to 3.456.000 pixels per eye being rendered (if I am not mistaken). The Pimax 5K has about 3.686.400 pixels per eye, so it should not be dramatically slower.

Thanks hadn't thought of it like that but you have got a point.

Could you back up my maths?

Rift CV1 = 1080 x 1200 pixels per eye = 1,296,000 pixels

Supersampling 1.7 is pretty comfortable for a 2080 GTX so:

1,296,000 x 1.7^2 = 3,745,440 pixels per eye rendered by the GPU internally.

Pimax 5K+ = 2560 x 1440 pixels per eye = 3,686,400 pixels

So the question is:

Rift CV1 on supersampling 1.7 approximately = Pimax 5K?

I think one issue is that the Pimax 5K needs super sampling as well because the pixels are spread out over a wider area.

From what I remember, reviewers of the Pimax 5K were adding super sampling.

So super sampling a Pimax 5K could potentially stress out a 2080ti.

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13 hours ago, robert young said:

Has anyone else tried using the native 3d VR images in P3d as a means to use eyes only?

I think this is doomed to fail. The reason is clear if you try to view stereo videos on YouTube with the naked eye, which is only possible if you show them very small. As far as I can tell the images need to no further apart than your interpupillary distance, in which case the images will merge when you learn to relax your eye muscles while still focusing. With the naked eye, this means the images would overlap if they were wider than your IPD. By contrast, in a HMD such as the Rift, the images are fed independently to each eye by lenses, which means they can be much larger without overlapping. 

In principle it is possible to view stereo images cross-eyed, in which case you can use somewhat larger images, but not very much larger. It's also probably not safe (and certainly not comfortable) to do this for very long. To do this without a HMD would need to find some other way to feed separate images to each eye.

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I think this is doomed to fail. 

I think I more or less conceded that after opening the discussion, which was really an exercise in speculation rather than a theory. However, as discussed, there is no evidence that parallel or "crossed eyed" viewing does any harm, any more than exercising other muscles does much harm, within reason.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, robert young said:

I think this is doomed to fail. 

I think I more or less conceded that after opening the discussion, which was really an exercise in speculation rather than a theory. However, as discussed, there is no evidence that parallel or "crossed eyed" viewing does any harm, any more than exercising other muscles does much harm, within reason.

Not sure what this has to do with what I said.

Edited by MarkDH

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Posted (edited)

If my maths is right, a 2080 will handle a Pimax5K very well without any supersampling.

But a 2080ti would only be able to handle a Pimax5K at about 1.2 supersampling before it too would start hitting its limits.

Edited by glider1

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