Ethiopia crash

[John_Cillis 2,406]

2 hours ago, zmak said:

And US has announced no ban and the 737 is safe. 300 dead in 6 months! 

We need to be careful not to sensationalize and use the dead as an excuse to do so.  I see no one complaining here about the toll drunk driving takes worldwide, or reckless driving and having just been hospitalized last week due to being run over, I know reckless and distracted driving very well.  The souls on board these aircraft, each and every one of them from flight crew to pax, were individuals and very important.  If their sacrifice leads to a safer air fleet, that is a God send to Boeing and the airlines.  Many 737-MAX flights are flown here in the US, with no instances of runaway trim "reported". 

However I was in a 737-300 ground accident in Jackson Hole in 1999 and it was never logged by the NTSB--I was the only passenger deplaning at the time because I had to gather my networking equipment from the overhead bin and I usually waited to deplane last in case my heavy carry-on had shifted during flight and could fall on someone.  BOOM!, the aircraft lurched to port, I was thrown across the aisle with my hip hitting the armrest of a seat on the port side of the aircraft which smarted enormously.  I looked out the window and saw ground crew staring up at the starboard side of the aircraft, the aircraft they had just rammed with a baggage conveyor truck.

The aircraft meant for outgoing pax back to Denver had to be ferried on oxygen because of the perforation in the fuse suspected anyway, they feared loss of integrity and severe structural damage.

So I wonder if runaway trim on the MAX fleet has been observed and simply swept under the rug, given United's failure to report the accident I was in and mildly hurt in in Jackson Hole, unreported by the NTSB and/or airline as a two decade old example and no fault of the 737.

I did help the flight crew deal with the angry out going pax as I was stuck at the airport not because I was hurt, but because I was waiting for my employee who was my backup to fly in on Delta from Salt Lake.  I had been a hotel guest service manager and as a UAL partner with Best Western, I did what I could by saying soothing things to the agents so the pax could understand that they were being sent a new aircraft, just to be safe.  They were eventually flown back to Denver two hours late just as my employee flew in, who asked why the airport was so crowded, lol....  He was incredulous when I told him about our ground accident and he said "John, I have always told you not to be last off the aircraft!"

I teased the flight crew rubbing my neck and claiming "lawsuit, lawsuit!" since they knew I was on the flight and they were serving as gate agents.  Two weeks later when I flew home the same crew was managing airport check in at Jackson Hole and I walked up rubbing my neck and knowing my name they said "MR CILLIS, STOP THAT" as we had a good laugh about what could have been a major ground incident two weeks' prior....

John

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by John_Cillis

[KevinAu 441]

The ntsb is only interested in certain events. https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=6aafa2a0cc84b5f460b02cd98493c837&mc=true&node=pt49.7.830&rgn=div5

It does not sound like the incident you experienced met the criteria for ntsb notification. In fact, they specifically state that they are not interested in dents or small punctures to the aircraft skin.

[SolRayz 392]

5 hours ago, zmak said:

The FAA always wants body count to be high before they act. 

This...

[HighBypass 2,339]

2 hours ago, John_Cillis said:

given United's failure to report the accident...

Don't United actually throw people of their aeroplanes these days? You got off lightly, John... 😄 Ahem!! Good on you though for being a kind person and helping to defuse the ongoing situation with the angry pax.

 

So... I believe that some of this discussion is alluding to the possibility of too much reliance on automation and not enough stick and rudder training.. an unwelcome factor, hopefully impossible, but not improbable. Like everyone else here, I can speculate, but the investigation will have to conclude with hard facts

I thought "Children of the Magenta Line" was a 90's thing..

[scott967 62]

Some one can correct me, but I don't think we have gotten an explanation yet as to how/why the AoA sensor on Lion Air produced faulty outputs.  FAA says they are OK with the maintenance/repair procedures but it seems like maintenance personnel made several attempts to troubleshoot and repair the "unreliable airspeed" reported by flight crew over the course of several days/flight segments and in the end, it wasn't fixed.

 

For me the decision that MCAS could rely on the single AoA sensor input is key.  I take it the certification authority treats MCAS as not critical to flight. It raises the question of other single-source inputs to the system.

 

scott s.

.

 

[fluffyflops 1,858]

3 hours ago, w6kd said:

Richard Quest?  The CNN reporter and ABC game show host that got busted for crystal meth in NYC?  He was hired by CNN as a business reporter...he has no bona fides in aviation other than being assigned as CNN's talking head on the subject. 

I saw a bunch of his reporting on MH370, and from a pilot's perspective, he's pretty much a clueless layman.  He doesn't know what he doesn't know, but like most reporters, that doesn't stop him.

Regards

 

3 hours ago, w6kd said:

 

As an example, the aforementioned AF447 crash identified a problem where the pilots were both making conflicting simultaneous control inputs, and as a result Airbus added a warning system to identify that dual inputs were being made by the flight controllers.  Airbus didn't ground all their FBW jets until they had this system upgrade--in fact not all of them have it even today.  Crew training on the problem was the first line of defense.

You also failed to mention they didnt bother to check the high sig charts which had the weather all over it.  The other operators on that Airway that night all asked for weather diversion off the Airways or have new  flight plans run for them.  That skipper didn't even bother to look at the charts or the mach shear on the plog.  Also from memory I believe they rostered a captain and 2 f/os not an sfo and an f/o ( who was only a relief pilot I believe) so it wasnt augmented as a unit. Needless to say skipper decided to jump into crew rest right in the middle of the bad weather, which he didnt know about because he could t be arsed to Check the charts given to him.  Air France CRM at its finest.  They always featured on crm courses I've attended and never to cease to amaze. 

Anyways back to the 737....

Edited March 12, 2019 by tooting

[John_Cillis 2,406]

15 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

Don't United actually throw people of their aeroplanes these days? You got off lightly, John... 😄 Ahem!! Good on you though for being a kind person and helping to defuse the ongoing situation with the angry pax.

 

So... I believe that some of this discussion is alluding to the possibility of too much reliance on automation and not enough stick and rudder training.. an unwelcome factor, hopefully impossible, but not improbable. Like everyone else here, I can speculate, but the investigation will have to conclude with hard facts

I thought "Children of the Magenta Line" was a 90's thing..

One thing stressed on me when I was going thru Light Sport training was the use of trim to get the aircraft into a stable cruise climb and speed.  I do watch videos of biz jet pilots and I watch as some engage the autopilot quite soon after takeoff.  I know cockpit workload is a challenge, heck in Light Sport I realized I could not fly out of controlled airports, because ATC got impatient with my slow drawl which is related to sunstroke I had early in life. 

I feel the autopilot alt hold should not be set until the aircraft has vectored out of airport range more or less on course with their destination and it should be able to be overridden with stick input, if necessary.  That may already happen but as I said I see bizjet pilots on youtube using the autopilot to control vectors while still quite low to the ground, and altitude.  

However it sounds like the Ethiopia jet was already approaching the flight levels, also Kenya is high altitude I believe, I have some friends who live there but I have not bothered them about the crash, given the sensitivity of the issue and their cultural differences which every culture has in responding to these things.

[threexgreen 3,139]

3 minutes ago, John_Cillis said:

However it sounds like the Ethiopia jet was already approaching the flight levels, also Kenya is high altitude I believe, I have some friends who live there but I have not bothered them about the crash, given the sensitivity of the issue and their cultural differences which every culture has in responding to these things.

I'm not sure about the transition altitude there, but the aircraft was only at 900 ft AGL one and a half minutes into the flight and even lost some more 400 ft. Nowhere near FLs.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

2 minutes ago, tooting said:

 

You also failed to mention they didnt bother to check the high sig charts which had the weather all over it.  The other operators on that Airway that night all asked for weather diversion off the Airways or have new  flight plans run for them.  That skipper didn't even bother to look at the charts or the mach shear on the plog.  Also from memory I believe they rostered a captain and 2 f/os not an sfo and an f/o ( who was only a relief pilot I believe) so it wasnt augmented as a unit. Needless to say skipper decided to jump into crew rest right in the middle of the bad weather, which he didnt know about because he could t be arsed to Check the charts given to him.  Air France CRM at its finest.  They always featured on crm courses I've attended and never to cease to amaze. 

Anyways back to the 737....

Good points, news reporting on air accidents, accidents and incidents of almost any nature, is way too often rushed to the public--not "fake" news but inadvertent news.  I knew Brit Hume in the late 80's, the well known anchor, and had a chance to briefly talk to him about his work.  His reporting was first class, and he had a presence of someone you listen to when I met him.  Oddly he liked me and I was warned by my employees he was standoffish.  Whenever in person, unless someone challenges me to a fist fight in which case they are doomed, lol, because I could run faster than they can, I try to stand in respect for that person, especially because my early career, actually more than half of it, was dealing with strangers and the public at large.

Sometimes I let my guard down in the forums though and speak with my foot in my keyboard so to speak and I meekly accept banishment from the mods until I can get my act back together.

John

[John_Cillis 2,406]

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I'm not sure about the transition altitude there, but the aircraft was only at 900 ft AGL one and a half wowminutes into the flight and even lost some more 400 ft. Nowhere near FLs.

Wow, did not know it was so low, begs the question if those are the facts, why did the runaway trim happen and was the autopilot even on, or was it a fly by wire issue and a runaway elevator, vs. trim.  They are two different beasts...

John

Edit: Hopefully it is possible for Boeing to update the fleet with a software update--I know of one bizjet that allows that if I recall right.  Fly by wire is complex, even my RC glider had a runaway elevator once and nose dived from 1000 ft. AGL into a street narrowly missing a car that passed just before....  The elevator jammed in the down position which should have never happened and the glider was damaged beyond repair, it disintegrated on impact. 

The company that made it bless their hearts gave me a free replacement because I had logged and posted my log ongoing more than 10 flight hours on it at altitudes nearing one mile after I shut down the motor on the glider.  But I lost the courage to fly it out of fear that even at the one RC park we had in Surprise, something similar could happen and someone could be injured.  I sold it to a good friend for around $40.00 but on the advisement that he honor my request to fly it in unpopulated areas.

Edited March 12, 2019 by John_Cillis

[threexgreen 3,139]

41 minutes ago, John_Cillis said:

Wow, did not know it was so low, begs the question if those are the facts, why did the runaway trim happen and was the autopilot even on, or was it a fly by wire issue and a runaway elevator, vs. trim.  They are two different beasts...

The 737 MAX only has a FBW spoiler system, all other controls are as in older models.

Edited March 12, 2019 by threegreen

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Just now, threegreen said:

The 737 MAX only has a FBW spoiler system, all other control inputs are as in older models.

Oh, again did not know that, I am learning more, but what surprises me is we have not heard of the older models having this same issue.  Could this problem be caused by inadvertent spoiler deployment?  Or again, what about the autopilot--although it would control the hydraulics, electronic means are used to do so. 

Same may or may not be true of trim, I do not know if a trim wheel is used or newer means, like the electronic trim some aircraft I have flown in Light Sport have (a feature I love because it is fingertip controlled, at least from a pilot's perspective).  In both Xplane11 and P3DV4 I have slaved my top stick buttons to elevator trim which is so convenient when I fly in the sim and quite like the Light Sport trainers I have flown. 

When I flew in trikes of course, trim is not used, you take off by pushing the trapeze forward and then the trike pretty much trims itself based on your throttle inputs.  Trikes are also stable in turns, you apply left or right pressure on the trapeze (left to turn right, and right to turn left, it takes some getting used to if you fly both fixed wing and trikes) until your desired bank angle is achieved, then you relax your pressure, and the turn commences, then you apply reverse pressure to get out of the turn. 

Super easy to control and I have flown a trike in 25 knot winds aloft twice, my CFI had me do that on purpose so I could practice S turns and turns around a point.  Smart guy, our airstrip with only a thousand foot runway was sheltered by ground winds somewhat, I landed the trike in about a ten knot wind slightly off quarter, not quite a true headwind.

[n4gix 4,947]

John, Boeing still uses a huge and heavy "trim wheel" for mechanical leverage in case the electric trim fails for any reason.

The correct procedure in the event of runaway trim control is for someone to put their hand on the wheel, then have the other pilot immediately flip up the guarded cover, and flip the electric trim override switches OFF.

The pilot flying can then use the old-fashioned "armstrong" method to put the plane back in trim.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=boeing+trim+wheel&&view=detail&mid=B5FC4E981D0FAB9327BDB5FC4E981D0FAB9327BD&&FORM=VRDGAR

[threexgreen 3,139]

17 minutes ago, John_Cillis said:

Oh, again did not know that, I am learning more, but what surprises me is we have not heard of the older models having this same issue.  Could this problem be caused by inadvertent spoiler deployment?  Or again, what about the autopilot--although it would control the hydraulics, electronic means are used to do so.

The older models don't have an MCAS. It's new on the MAX. 

Inadvertent spoiler deployment would not cause an aircraft to go into an erratic flight like this one did.

In case this is related to the MCAS, the autopilot would not play a part in an automatic nose down stab trim command. The MCAS is designed to apply nose down stab trim at very high AoAs with the flaps up and in manual flight, not when the autopilot is engaged.

(Disclaimer: we don't know anything yet.) However, the MCAS putting the plane into that flight path doesn't seem likely to me as, like I said above, it's designed to work when flaps are up and judging by the fight data I've been able to find it seems the trouble began when flaps were likely to be still extended.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

3 minutes ago, threegreen said:

The older models don't have an MCAS. It's new on the MAX. 

Inadvertent spoiler deployment would not cause an aircraft to go into an erratic flight like this one did.

In case this is related to the MCAS, the autopilot would not play a part in an automatic nose down stab trim command. The MCAS is designed to apply nose down stab trim at very high AoAs with the flaps up and in manual flight, not when the autopilot is engaged.

(Disclaimer: we don't know anything yet.) However, the MCAS putting the plane into that flight path doesn't seem likely to me as, like I said above, it's designed to work when flaps are up and judging by the fight data I've been able to find it seems the trouble began when flaps were likely to be still extended.

For the acronym challenged like me, what does MCAS stand for?