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kerosene31

Major Pain - Please fix for FSX

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Guest A32X

Hi,As I'm sure you know, you need CD4 in the cd drive to launch FS9. However, as a hardcore user, this CD is nearly always in use. Anyway, I got a few scratches on it and it no longer reads a few files so I could no longer install FS9, after I did an uninstall. Hence I had to buy another copy.Please remove the CD/DVD dependence! This problem is not uncommon - goggle it.

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As a hardcore user, then, you must understand that from certain points of view there's more to having the CD in the drive than providing an annoyance to simmers? And it's not always in use; it's used at the sim startup. Nothing more. And a search of this forum would tell you it's been discussed: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchForum searches work - "goggle" that...

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Why is not possible to buy it online and just download it, i buy many games from http://www.direct2drive.com/ , its much easier. And with fast broadband available most places 10-35mbit or faster its no pain, and no one has to worry about scratches.

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Guest kurtj

>Hi,>>As I'm sure you know, you need CD4 in the cd drive to launch>FS9. However, as a hardcore user, this CD is nearly always in>use. Anyway, I got a few scratches on it and it no longer>reads a few files so I could no longer install FS9, after I>did an uninstall. Hence I had to buy another copy.>>Please remove the CD/DVD dependence! This problem is not>uncommon - goggle it.I agree with that. I wish it would be like fs2002 Pro. You only need the cd to install and mind as well keep it pristine so you can install it if your program crashes or you need to clean off your computer.

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Guest

then stop giving "backup copies" to friends and family (maybe not you in particular but people in general).

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Guest Surge

We just need an online license setup like WinXP that work on a unique key generated from hardware components.I've seen quite a lot of games and simulators that rely on this method and it's very effective at stoping casual copying.Or just use the patched (9.1) crack like I do.Yes, I have a paid for copy of FS9 but I don't like to play disk jockey all the time or risk losing my disks. I had to save up for 2 years to buy FS9 and I don't feel like saving for another two years to buy a replacement copy.Paul

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>then stop giving "backup copies" to friends and family (maybe>not you in particular but people in general).I'm curious: Are there any hard facts, like a survey, to backup the notion that Microsoft Flight Simulator is actually being distributed over the world's file sharing/cd pirating infrastructure?I can appreciate that fact that teenagers crack and copy their games. The attention span is fairly limited (every favorite game is quickly replaces by another within a month or so) and their economy is usually, well, not actually THEIR economy but their parents. Microsoft Flight Simulator isn't even a game after all. I can only assume the vast majority of people wanting to delve deep into a SIMULATOR(!) are 30+ dudes (and the occasional "dudette") with jobs and a firm interest in aviation. I therefore believe that the vast majority do pay for it.Does Microsoft care to contradict this?

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You don't need a survey. Just take a look at the binary newsgroups. FS2004 has been available there three years now. And it was widely available on pirated CD's the day after release.Doug

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Guest

your assumption that the majority of users are the hardcare is wrong.There are several million copies of FS2004 in use worldwide, of those the hardcore users are at most a few tens of thousands (or a few percent).So over 95% of all copies are in the hands of people who see it as a passtime and likely drop it after a few weeks like any other game.That's most of the target market for pirates as well.And oh, if FS weren't in the piracy circuit it would be one of the only entertainment titles from the last 25 years that isn't, highly unlikely given the number of copies in circulation and the fact that tools to enable such pirated copies to work (no-CD cracks, etc.) are openly distributed online (and worse, several "reputable" sites openly distribute Microsoft intellectual property which effectively turns the normal versions of FS2000 and 2002 into the pro versions).

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> You don't need a survey. Just take a look at the binary>newsgroups. FS2004 has been available there three years now.>And it was widely available on pirated CD's the day after>release.>>DougWell then, if that's the case, what's the point of keeping a copy protection scheme that clearly isn't working? Either it needs to be replaced (how about a private key scheme?) or remove it alltogether. I have to say it's even more bothering to know that we, the paying customers, are the only ones that needs to put up with the disc shuffling while the pirates doesn't.

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I don't mind the copy-protection as it's just a fact that it's needed. But I agree that there has to be a better way to do it than having to put a CD into the drive. Especially since that's so easily defeated. And you're right, the guys with the pirated copy have a much easier time of it in that regard than those of us who actually paid for the discs. Maybe the team will come up with a better approach this time.Doug

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Guest

It's a relatively cheap solution that stops at least some piracy and likely has earned itself back.If an activation scheme were to be used there'd be even more complaints about FSX being "spyware" and it being "unfair" to people updating their hardware or not having an internet connection (just read the storm of protest when WinXP was released from kids who now no longer could buy one copy for the entire extended family).I have a watertight solution to piracy (and one that doesn't involve not releasing any more software), but you'd not like it one little bit.It would not make piracy impossible but would cause the idiot handing out his license information to pirates to loose a lot of money automatically.

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My Disk 4 is now put away!I bought a BFG NVidia 7800 card a few weeks ago, and a special piece of software came with it......GAME DRIVE 9.0. After loading it, it creates a Virtual Drive (It can create as many as you want). The Virtual Drive has a copy of Disk 4 on it now. FS9 works perfectly and as a benefit, it supposedly loads faster from your hard drive than it does from a disk.I'm sure you can buy GAME DRIVE, because there is an opportunity to upgrade the free version to a professional version on the disk.Hope this helps.

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Guest BOPrey

Hey, I am a software developer and would like to learn about your scheme. Currently, my software is protected by a hardware key and it frequently checks our server for key verification. On top of that, each customer has a unique key. Also the software cannot be started from a debugger and ramdom parts of the executable is encripted as well. What is your scheme?

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Guest

Subscription based service with everything except a bootstrapper running remote, sending only results back for rendering.Client logs in to an account that's pay per use with automatic payments through bank account or creditcard.If he hands out his account info (which would be needed) to someone else, he pays for their use (and whomever they hand it out to) as well as his own.This will quickly drive that person into either terminating the account (shutting out all the pirates as well) or bankruptcy (in which case the same would happen for non-payment).The bootstrapper can be freely distributed of course, as it's useless without an account, and can have functionality to request and create an account.Pretty similar to some MMORPGs except pull even more work to the server (it's with many of those still possible at least in theory to put up your own server as the server mainly does communications duty, at least it would in an environment without monsters to kill like FS).

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Guest BOPrey

Indeed, indeed. How much bandwidth do you think a game like this is going to need? On the business issue, how do you handle customer disputes?

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Guest

the rendering engine would be clientside most likely.For FS that would mean the client gets told by the server where it is (altitude, speed, direction, attitude) and the same for everything else.Effectively decouple the physics engine from the graphics engine.Without the physics engine (and other parts of the game engine, like the AI) the software is useless.Display logic is the majority of the CPU load anyway for FS...If an FSHost session can host over a dozen players, several observers, and the host computer can run FS as well with hardly and performance impact, a dedicated bank of heavy servers should have no problems.That should reduce bandwidth use as well to a managable level, certainly little enough that someone on a 256Kb DSL connection can use the product smoothly.I know the idea is more practical for business applications than it is for games, but it's certainly doable.Customer disputes are always a problem, no different than any online retailer and other company dealing with customers.I've no idea about how such a product would have to be priced, but likely something like $25-$30 a month would be the minimum for the average user (pay per view does of course mean heavy users pay more).

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Guest grapesh

Monthly fee and internet connection requirement will immediately kill the success of MSFS. I'm not gonna pay $30 a month to see my FS stuttering because the remote server cannot timely compute the trajectories of my aircraft, my AI aircrafts, my weather, and aircrafts, AI and weather of thousands of other users. You cannot deliver a good real-time physics over the internet.Web-based accounts should only be used to provide web-based features such as real-time weather, career mode, game statistics, real-time traffic, multiplay, etc. If such features have a good added value to FS, then a web account can be used as a copy-protection device. If your server-side log and your local log coincide (and we know that, for instance, all engine hours are logged automatically now in FS9), then you authenticate successfully and receive access to those web-based features. And, if you have 2 copies of MSFS, then you should sync them. If you share your FS account, it means you will need to sync all PCs that run your copy, just to be able to authenticate. Which becomes troublesome if 100 other people are using your account. And even if you manage to sync them all, the "community accounts" are going to be clearly visible from server side due to huge logs, and therefore, easily detectable. It is one way to protect from a wide-spread sharing but only if web-based features are going to be really appealing to basic and advanced users as well.Cheers,

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Do you seriously expect anyone would pay $25-$30 a month to use Flight Simulator when they can buy it for under $30?

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Guest

Just look at the success of MMORPGs... Millions pay such fees every month quite happily despite there being a lot of other games that are far more fun out there that don't require monthly payment.And there won't be an FS for under $30 anymore once a subscription system is put in place.It might be simple for Microsoft (and other OS makers) to ensure that previous versions of certain products don't work on a new operating system as well (though they've not done so in the past, in fact have done the reverse)...So yes, it would possibly be a success, seeing the way the concept is working right now with other classes of software.Remember it's certainly not a new idea, many types of software are essentially released like this already, it's only in the PC market where the idea is relatively new as there's not been highspeed permanent networks been available to customers for that long.

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Guest grapesh

Well, FS is not MMORPG, there is no shooting or quest, or magic dragons, and it is not aimed at the same category of players. I don't know anyone around (well, maybe just one a "very dedicated" guy) who actually pays for MMORPG. And FS is certainly not a subscription-only online paralegal database either. So I don't understand why intentionally making a great product so undesirable for so many present and potential users. You can sell something in addition to FS by subscription only (like rw-traffic) but not the main product!And I don't really understand why you want MS to make their new OS incompatible with your old copy of FS :-hmmm Is it some kind of self-punishment? :)Cheers,

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> but you'd not like it one little bit.>It would not make piracy impossible but would cause the idiotyup..don't like it at all.

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"So over 95% of all copies are in the hands of people who see it as a passtime and likely drop it after a few weeks like any other game."So 95% would never pay $30/month ($360/year). I don't believe that many of the other 5% would pay that either - having been used to buying FS outright for about that. The potential market's shrinking already.

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When MMORPGs were first proposed reactions were the same, that noone would pay a monthly subscription fee to use a piece of software when there were RPGs out there that didn't need such subscriptions.Yet here we are only a few years later and MMORPGs are a massive industry that's rapidly becoming the preferred businessmodel for releasing new games.Same is happening in other fields as well...I'm not saying I'd like to see FS go that way, but it's certainly a means to destroy piracy (which is why so many RPGs went that way in the first place).The people only playing it for a few weeks wouldn't have higher cost than they have now, such games always have a free trial period after all.The rest will either have to pay up or stick with old software, and we all know that we're going to upgrade anyway no matter how loudly many say we're not going to...

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