How should the ATC work?

[Deleted 250]

12 minutes ago, Noodle said:

Haha, be careful! I said something similar about 10 posts up, and somebody got their knickers in a twist so the moderator deleted my post.

We're not allowed to acknowledge the differences between CAA/ANSP procedures, and we're definitely not allowed to point out how the differences can be "annoying" if you're used to doing things a different way.

And its heresy to point out that ICAO is not a regulatory body and has no enforcement authority.

Oops! I did it again!

You can write something normally, or you can write it provocatively

[Noodle 626]

Well, I didn't use the words "frustrating", "ridiculous", "useless", "inaccurate" or "non-standard" in my description, so...

All I said was that the game's ATC should be configurable to accommodate some of the major differences between the US and Euro friends procedures, since people often feel "the other way" is annoying.

I also said that ICAO isn't a governing authority and its SARPs are, by definition, only suggestions. I also pointed out that any differences between the ICAO SARPs and the way a sovereign nation chooses to implement its ATC is noted in that country's AIP.

Just stating a few facts.

[Deleted 250]

I think if there are a lot of differences between nations, it will be a huge job.

Maybe a job for external developers. MS should make preparations for it.

[188AHC 2,138]

Noodle I actually agree with you. However, I haven't flown in Europe so I don't know how they do it there.

Initially English was adopted as the default language for ATC and as things always evolve some countries have added their phrasing to it.  The thought in the beginning was that one language would be more effective than controllers all over the world using their native language. This worked well for many years and still does to a degree.

This is even more critical with the level of international travel we have today. As for procedures, it is the responsibility of the aircraft crew to familiarize themselves with the differences in the area they will be flying to.

 

 

[FDEdev 955]

1 hour ago, 188AHC said:

However, I haven't flown in Europe so I don't know how they do it there.

Initially English was adopted as the default language for ATC

As for procedures, it is the responsibility of the aircraft crew to familiarize themselves with the differences in the area they will be flying to.

They don't use QFE in 99% of Europe even if some non-European pilots say so. 

I don't know a specific date, but Arabic,Chinese, English, French, Russian, and Spanish are official ICAO languages and they are being used in the respective countries since many decades. 

And that's why I haven't met a single professional pilot who complains about or is frustrated with another countries ATC.

Edited August 25, 2019 by FDEdev
edited due to noodles complaint

[bonchie 2,305]

People can complain and talk about how the US doesn’t do it right, but the idea that they are going to model multiple ATC procedures for different parts of the world is highly unlikely.

 

 

[Noodle 626]

@FDEdev You're really stuck on the fact that I mentioned QFE, huh?

And I like the quotation marks and emojis you employ to subtly remind readers that you're somehow superior,  as opposed to simply having a different perspective.

I don't fly GA in Europe, but I see lots of UK flyers mention QFE, so i tossed into a short list of things that people would probably recognize as being different to which they are accustomed.

My post wasn't meant to be a case study on the operational differences between systems, or some grand statement on the efficacy thereof. I was just pointing out that people get touchy when they're made to do things in a manner different than what they're used to.

You're proving my point.

I despise DCS because its rudimentary ATC issues QFE instead of QNH. I know our Euro friends didn't like FSX using "TIPH" instead of "LUAW".

Is this really such a contentious point?

Edited August 25, 2019 by Noodle
Spelling

[FDEdev 955]

6 minutes ago, bonchie said:

People can complain and talk about how the US doesn’t do it right

I always loved flying to the U.S.  Straight foward, quick, efficient and helpful. Never experienced anything 'wrong' or 'frustrating' with their ATC. 🙂 

Edited August 25, 2019 by FDEdev

[kevinfirth 1,396]

25 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

They don't use QFE in 99% of Europe even if some non-European pilots say so. 

I don't know a specific date, but Arabic,Chinese, English, French, Russian, and Spanish are official ICAO languages and they are being used in the respective countries since many decades. 

And that's why I haven't met a single professional pilot who complains about or is frustrated with another countries ATC.

QFE in the UK is sparingly used and mostly for local circuits only of smaller fields IIRC.  I did my PPL in the UK and whilst the syllabus covered QFE in reality QNH is far more frequently used.  I can't speak for other European countries.

[kevinfirth 1,396]

14 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

I always loved flying to the U.S.  Straight foward, quick, efficient and helpful. Never experienced anything 'wrong' or 'frustrating' with their ATC. 🙂 

I think we can all agree that MS forcing an inaccurate ATC usage on ANY part of the world would be sub-optimal for some proportion of users.  I'd like it correct everywhere 🙂

[FDEdev 955]

In the last 3 decades I've flown to lots of different countries in all continents, but apart from the difficulties to simply understand the controller, I haven't come across noticable inaccurate ATC usage anywhere. 

ATC with American accent when flying e.g. in China does reduce the immersion of course, but that's a rather difficult problem to solve I assume.

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by FDEdev

[Noodle 626]

59 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

In the last 3 decades I've flown to lots of different countries in all continents, but apart from the difficulties to simply understand the controller, I haven't come across noticable inaccurate ATC usage anywhere. 

ATC with American accent when flying e.g. in China does reduce the immersion of course, but that's a rather difficult problem to solve I assume.

 

 

[FDEdev 955]

That looks indeed promising!

[alex86 192]

On 8/23/2019 at 10:16 AM, FDEdev said:

'twelve sixty four' is not standard phraseology and transmitting call signs that way isn't appreciated in most parts of the world.

It is here in the US. As a matter of fact, with air carriers, the callsign has to be stated in group form. 

[FDEdev 955]

45 minutes ago, alex86 said:

It is here in the US. As a matter of fact, with air carriers, the callsign has to be stated in group form. 

Interesting, but this apparently only applies to US airlines within US airspace.