CHICAGO, Illinois -- On Thursday, 2 January 2020, an Atlas Air Boeing 747-400 Flight 5Y-551 (Giant 551 Heavy) from New York's JFK airport to Chicago O'Hare was in the initial descent through FL320 towards Chicago when the crew reported they just had to shut down their number 2 engine. They did not declare an emergency. ATC told the crew they declared an emergency for them instead. The aircraft landed safely on Chicago's runway 28C about 40 minutes after reporting the engine failure.

 

 

Is it normal for ATC to declare the emergency in lieu of the pilot?

12 minutes ago, Okgood said:

Is it normal for ATC to declare the emergency in lieu of the pilot?

NO!

One ATC controller stepping out of the boundaries. Asking if they need help is something else and is appreciated but, to call emergency in behalf of the pilots it's so wrong.

Next, totally unacceptable on the handoff, how is that possible if it is a problem with the aircraft (especially in an emergency situation that the next sector is not informed about the aircraft intensions?

Aircraft is vectored for RWY 28C and suddenly another unacceptable question regarding if is diverting or is going to the original destination.  That info is available right in front of the controller on the strip.

Some of ATC controllers are soooo good and some are sooo baaad, that goes both ways.

32 minutes ago, killthespam said:

NO!

One ATC controller stepping out of the boundaries. Asking if they need help is something else and is appreciated but, to call emergency in behalf of the pilots it's so wrong.

I disagree here.  I've seen it happen before in the real world. 

From FAA Order 7110.65Y, Aug 2019 (aka "the Controller's Bible"):

Para 10-1-1 (d) Emergency Declarations:

Because of the infinite variety of possible emergency situations, specific procedures cannot be prescribed. However, when you believe an emergency exists or is imminent, select and pursue a course of action which appears to be most appropriate under the circumstances and which most nearly conforms to the instructions in this manual.

Para 10-2-5 Emergency Situations:

Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC when any of the following exist: NOTE−USAF facilities are only required to notify the ARTCC.

a.An emergency is declared by either:

  1.The pilot.

  2.Facility personnel.

  3.Officials responsible for the operation of the aircraft.

 

 

As a former FAA controller, it is true and I've seen emergencies declared by ATC rather than the PIC. One time at JFK Tower, I witnessed an emergency declared for an inop APU!

"Minimum Fuel" declarations are another area of confusion. 

I always thought the shut down of one engine on a 747 while abnormal was not considered an emergency - except of course if other factors were at play.

Just now, DavidP said:

I always thought the shut down of one engine on a 747 while abnormal was not considered an emergency - except of course if other factors were at play.

You're right. The ATC declaration is not a requirement. 

44 minutes ago, DavidP said:

I always thought the shut down of one engine on a 747 while abnormal was not considered an emergency

Quite. Presumably ORD ATC will be declaring emergencies for every B737, B757, B767, B777, B787, A320 etc turning up with only two engines operating! 😁

Ok, for Bob and Les Parson.

Let;'s revisit this.

You as a controller can declare whatever you want in reference to your jurisdiction, you cannot declare an emergency for me as a pilot.

 

 

From FAA Order 7110.65Y

 

It's very clear, when I encounter a distress condition I declare emergency as a pilot. Which in this particular case the pilots did not!

 

 

10−1−1. EMERGENCY DETERMINATIONS a. An emergency can be either a Distress or an Urgency condition as defined in the “Pilot/Controller Glossary.” 

b. A pilot who encounters a Distress condition should declare an emergency by beginning the initial communication with the word “Mayday,” preferably repeated three times. For an Urgency condition, the word “Pan-Pan” should be used in the same manner.

 

As an example in reference to this particular instance for a 747 or a 4 engine airplane losing just one engine it is not an emergency, when we lose 2 that's an emergency.

For a twin losing an engine that's an emergency.

For a single-engine, bad day.

 

You as a controller even familiar with the aircraft performance you are not qualified and trained to determine when I, as a pilot will  declare an emergency or what QRH calls for an emergency. 

 

 

When you mention about

 

10−2−5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC when any of the following exist: NOTE− USAF facilities are only required to notify the ARTCC. 

a. An emergency is declared by either: 

1. The pilot. 

2. Facility personnel. 

3. Officials responsible for the operation of the aircraft. 

b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft.

.............................

g. The need for ground rescue appears likely.

In our case item 2, we have a person who's not properly trained and his assesment is incorrect. There was no indication or declaration from anybody as to be an emergency. He just got excited for no reason.

 

On item 3, yes dispatch can declare an emergency for us.  

 

As you noticed, item 1 has us listed as no 1, believe me, we know better than anybody else when we have an emergency.

Unfortunately, you as an ATC will know way later down the road when we have an emergency and ask for your precious help.

 

While ORD and JFK have the best controller you will find some very rood and jumping to wrong conclusions and actually create problems.

The same applies to us the pilots, we all should be able to see reality and improve ourselves.

 

 

 

Min fuel it's not an emergency, should be no confusion at all.

Edited January 9, 20206 yr by killthespam

2 hours ago, killthespam said:

Ok, for Bob and Les Parson.

Let;'s revisit this.

Well, no, let's not.

Suffice it to say that regardless of how much jailhouse lawyering goes on here, that I believe you are wrong on this, based on my knowledge of the regulations and my experience--43 years as a pilot and having run two air force airfields, with ATC facilities at both.

 

Bob,

I'm shocked to hear that you do not realize that is something wrong here with this controller.

 

1) Pilot advises ATC that they had an engine failure, there is no emergency situation declared, there is no priority requested is just advising that he needs only speed 280.

 

2) ATC is asking if they declare an emergency.

 

3) The pilot advises ATC that they will let him know if they need anything.

 

4) ATC completely ignores the pilot statements and now is asking if the need any equipment. For what?

 

5) ATC out of the blue moon now decides to declare an emergency despite the conversations they had and there is no issue. 

 

6) ATC shows that no matter what the pilot says, it is fixated to a situation that doesn't exist and now is asking if they need to go direct to ORD. Why when nothing is wrong?

 

7) ATC now is asking for fuel remaining, no event triggered that.

 

8 After all, this ATC now is asking for clarification of what happened, even he declared an emergency.

What's going on with this controller?

 

9) Just to show how out of touch is this individual, he is asking now "what was the requested rwy". Pilots did not ask for anything like that.

 

All these events are on the tape (very easy to follow) and clearly indicative of a fatigue ATC with a need to take a break.  

 

Remember, you not the only real pilot with military experience, ATC facilities and 43 years in the field.

 

Obviously no matter what is the evidence you like to argue.

 

There is nothing to say anymore.

Edited January 10, 20206 yr by killthespam