Being part of building something vs tearing it down....

[Sesquashtoo 2,846]

2 minutes ago, overspeed3 said:

Where have all the thousands of volunteer testers gone?  Nowhere. They have morphed into Microsoft flight sim customers, and their numbers are now legion... 

LOL!

[devgrp 1,233]

16 hours ago, rrroberttt said:

Ever since the 1.8.3.0  patch, I have to reinstall the sim every day. Once I reinstall, it will work for the balance of the day. Next day when I go to start it, I get the blue error box, something has gone wrong, cannot repair of fix it. Will have to reinstall. I knew going in that this was an beta release, I expected that everything about this sim was not going to be perfect. This business of reinstallation every day is something else. I bought this from microsoft. I have reported this to them. I have as yet, not recieved an answer from them. Who would have thought that something like this would happen, with an company of this size.

Maybe little elves or fairies are tampering with it when you're gone. How do you go from a sim work to not working after turning off the pc?

[pstrub 998]

11 hours ago, Sesquashtoo said:

Interesting viewpoint.  A person that tells his or her reasons why they feel they did not get the value for the money...or features that were promoted by speech, or represented by screenshots or produced videos for the asking price they paid, due to a 3 patch  altered RTM version of MSFS, ...are haters...but..., not ones blowing sunshine and rushing to place a bouquet into the dev's  reaching hands, are not. 

Haters, you say?

Cheers,

Ses

I think for most users here there's a clear line between those who criticise and those who spread "hate" or "negativity". And my feeling is few people in here oppose criticism (and while I enjoy the overall experience in MSFS, I'm the first to agree there's a lot to criticise).

For example, while I don't agree with all the points you make in your venting post from yesterday, I can totally understand where you're coming from, and why it's enough to turn you away from MSFS, at least for a while. I wouldn't tag it with "negativity" nor "hate". But ok, thread's closed, let's leave it at it.

The posts I refer to as hating and negative are more along the lines of this gem I just stumbled upon: "maybe less time explaining on streams and videos what they plan to do. more time on actually fixing and implementing patches that don't break more than they fix. perhaps FS2020 will stand a better chance" 

Another common type of comments are those that just say "What about (insert pet peeve here)??? Still not fixed???", with the user spamming the same comment all over the forum... 

I see this a lot more often on the official MSFS forums than here, and to some extent I can see why someone would do this over there - at least there's a remote possibility of the devs taking note of the dissatisfaction. But I've seen these comments here too.

In here, what's the use of posting the same snarky one-liners all over the forum? We're a community of flight-simmers, most of them friendly and willing to help, and some of us experiencing less issues than others, and therefore enjoying the experience - without denying the fact that MSFS still has a long way to go. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by pstrub

[shadow133 23]

Don’t you just hate when you go to a restaurant, order and pay for meat lasagna only to get eggplant parmigiana instead?

Worse is he keeps your money while you have to go into the kitchen to explain to the chef what is lasagna.

Even worse is when he promises he is listening and will fix things up, but instead you see him working on the neighbors sushi plate.

[pstrub 998]

1 hour ago, shadow133 said:

Don’t you just hate when you go to a restaurant, order and pay for meat lasagna only to get eggplant parmigiana instead?

Worse is he keeps your money while you have to go into the kitchen to explain to the chef what is lasagna.

Even worse is when he promises he is listening and will fix things up, but instead you see him working on the neighbors sushi plate.

I go to an Italian restaurant, knowing that it opened just over a month ago and the cook's only expertise is with Asian cooking. Reviews on google maps are very mixed, almost evenly split between 1 and 5 stars. 

I get up from my chair, walk around the whole restaurant and keep telling the other guests that I got eggplant parmigiani instead of lasagna.

Some are dissatisfied too, others decided to try the eggplant parmigiani which was pretty good, albeit a bit more spicy than expected in Italian food. Those who don't like what they got can get their money back, or try something else from the menu that's actually quite delicious and close to what's ordered. The chef promises to work on it and improve the recipes in the next couple of months.

Some decide to go to their favourite restaurants from now on and never return, others enjoy the experience because it's so much tastier than the bland food served in other places.

After telling them my story for the third time, most of them roll their eyes.

I get kicked out.

 

Not in any way an accurate depiction of reality, it's just that I can make up weird analogies too.

Edited October 1, 2020 by pstrub

[DylanM 1,069]

13 hours ago, ChrisDa said:

I have the basics installed so I could try FS2020 and have had so many CTD, and system freeze ups, I have lost count. Fortunately I have been able to resort to doing my other work on another computer here in the Office. You can see my hardware setup in my signature.

Sorry to hear about your issues, but I had something similar on one of my OC'd test rigs. Turns out MSFS was stressing the OC so hard, it was exposing the instability of my overclock (never had this issue with XP or P3D V4/V5); had to adjust the strap and voltages again and turns out that's what it was. Good luck.

Edit and apologies for going OT: telltale signs of an OC issue are when you have issues outside the app as well (think you noted blackscreens at bootup); that could be indication of too low a voltage for CPU / memory

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by DylanM

[RobJC 2,071]

4 minutes ago, DylanM said:

Sorry to hear about your issues, but I had something similar on one of my OC'd test rigs. Turns out MSFS was stressing the OC so hard, it was exposing the instability of my overclock (never had this issue with XP or P3D V4/V5); had to adjust the strap and voltages again and turns out that's what it was. Good luck.

I had mentioned the same thing. I think this latest version does not like OC very much. MSFS stresses the !@#$ out of your system. 

[DylanM 1,069]

1 minute ago, RobJC said:

I had mentioned the same thing. I think this latest version does not like OC very much. MSFS stresses the !@#$ out of your system. 

Does it ever - I can heard the radiators on the liquid cooling spool up like never before...but that's what the hardware is there for! hah Seems like a better stress test than even Aida64...

 

[shadow133 23]

8 hours ago, pstrub said:

I go to an Italian restaurant, knowing that it opened just over a month ago and the cook's only expertise is with Asian cooking. Reviews on google maps are very mixed, almost evenly split between 1 and 5 stars. 

I get up from my chair, walk around the whole restaurant and keep telling the other guests that I got eggplant parmigiani instead of lasagna.

Some are dissatisfied too, others decided to try the eggplant parmigiani which was pretty good, albeit a bit more spicy than expected in Italian food. Those who don't like what they got can get their money back, or try something else from the menu that's actually quite delicious and close to what's ordered. The chef promises to work on it and improve the recipes in the next couple of months.

Some decide to go to their favourite restaurants from now on and never return, others enjoy the experience because it's so much tastier than the bland food served in other places.

After telling them my story for the third time, most of them roll their eyes.

I get kicked out.

 

Not in any way an accurate depiction of reality, it's just that I can make up weird analogies too.

Yeah, imagine if that was real? I would feel pretty stupid, especially if I paid $119 for lasagna.

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

1 hour ago, shadow133 said:

Yeah, imagine if that was real? I would feel pretty stupid, especially if I paid $119 for lasagna

At least it's not an automobile analogy.

[skyhawk211 1]

23 hours ago, RobJC said:

That is one viewpoint. Here is another. Today we have FSX, P3D and XP (before MSFS was released). When Microsoft left the scene we were basically left with a couple companies trying to work with decade old code, and we had a tiny team working on XP. I think it is reasonable to say that our hobby wasn't going anywhere fast. Sure there was progress, but when you compare it to the laundry list of advancements MSFS have made, as a hobby we were dying a slow death. There was very little innovation or momentum. And the market just wasn't big enough to bring sufficient new users into the mix to justify more development.

Then Microsoft drops a bomb and says...hey guys, you were the red headed step child for the last decade, but guess what? You are now the blonde with big cans and everyone wants to take you home. All of a sudden MSFS is making it into gaming benchmarks. This is the new Crysis. Can your hardware run it? The buzz around this sim and our hobby would have been unthinkable by even the most optimistic only two years ago. Literally our industry went from dead to the in thing overnight, and throw in xbox support and now we have a huge market that will attract 3rd party developers. Imagine the insane study level planes coming our way? This is the GOLDEN ERA of flight sims, and we are all in for some amazing simming in the coming years. This rewrites the book on our industry. It is really quite amazing. 

But then the promo videos led to the launch, and we hit a bit of turbulence. It wasn't a terrible launch, and none of us were expecting perfection. Asobo stumbled a bit. They bit off a little more than they could handle the first month. But they also delivered a word not allowed good product and made a lot of good design decisions. So when I step back and look at the big picture, i am more than enthusiastic. This is the platform that we have dreamed about, and it is actually happening right now. 

I am not saying that we should not express our opinions. Being constructive with criticism is fine, and very useful. But when people blow up every topic with negativity, demanding the QA team is fired, and saying that Asobo doesn't know what they are doing, and MS is just dumbing down the product for xbox users, I fail to see how that helps anyone. I also think that those same people are missing the point of this journey. Report the issues. Help make this sim the best it can be. But use the energy productively because we have all waited a very long time for this day, and lets all enjoy it to the fullest. Venting about this or that issue occasionally is fine, and I will do it too, but when every single thread becomes a bashing session I just think it is wrong, and it takes away from this period of time when we could be enjoying the ride. 

Whether we like it or not this sim is being built and it will be something special in a year, maybe two. Why be dragged kicking and screaming the whole way through it? Also, being positive and constructive is just a better way to live imo. Life is too short to be upset about stuff like this. 

I disagree with this.

First, zendesk was made well aware of the very bad bugs that are gamestoppers as well as the minor ones since alpha version .1.

Second, when the only major way Microsoft and Asobo claim to fix their software with some major issues is to wipe your whole system multiple times and re install the operating system all over again either latest build or the version prior which is almost next to impossible because how Microsoft deals with os installs, that pretty much discredits them from any advice and continued zendesk reports.

In other words they want you to wipe out everything, reinstall windows and re-download the game over and over again, and yet the major CTD issues are still present and did not magically go away. They do not even have a clue how to fix their own software created issues.

Not to mention, windows ten does have its own issues in build 2004 that probably do affect the game, yet not every customer is a paid IT technician.

Furthermore when they try what Microsoft suggested, wooops, forgot to backup private and important data and now it’s all gone. In the MSFS2020 troubleshooting page they forgot to add might be wise to make a system image of system and/or complete backup.

Also how many customers know how to hack window installation images or .iso images to put on a disc or flash drive that has an older install routine for different builds of windows??

Well, Microsoft and Asobo assume by now everyone is a professional technician after dealing with this mess! Funny this is just a unique game that has the most issues after three initial patches compared to every other software package out there. The only software package that beats this one in the troubleshooting area, is windows 10 itself.

I apologize for my frustration and emotions but it is time for the truth, and Microsoft and Asobo need to hear it over and over again until they correct whatever the problem is, that is the root of all evils over there.

Yes I heard and saw several times now the fun chit chat session they had.

Actions speak louder than words, they should of really not announced even more new ideas and things they want to do in the near future. Because if they didn’t work on the root of the problem before hand, those patches and updates are going to be on the same path leading to even a longer list of bugs and crashes and be never-ending. 
 

They kind have dug themselves a hole and still at this moment have some time to get themselves out. Many customers have decided to abandon them for now.

I wish Asobo and Microsoft luck and hope things change over there!

 

[pstrub 998]

7 hours ago, shadow133 said:

Yeah, imagine if that was real? I would feel pretty stupid, especially if I paid $119 for lasagna.

So, what do you do now? We've known this since a day or two after release day, and it's been obvious that the airliners have serious issues that won't be fixed for a few months more, and above that, this is how it's always been with airliners in MSFS. Less issues with autopilot (which indeed is annoying at times in MSFS 2020), but FMC or flight plans haven't even been around in FSX. It's been a given in like forever that for real systems simulation (including flight plans, FMC, MCDU) you need to wait for add-ons, and they take their time to arrive on a new platform. 

You've had the possibility to get a refund. We've all had our possibility to test MSFS standard for $1 a whole month using the Gamepass promotion. I get it you're annoyed, and I get that for some people $120 is a lot of money, while for others it's chump change. And I get the bigger picture that it's bad business practice to sell unfinished products that should rather be marketed as early access.

It's been 6 weeks since release, and I would feel stupid to keep complaining on a community forum about the money, when I had the opportunity to get it back. So I assume it isn't about the money. Maybe it's about the frustration? But this way of dealing with it seems pretty childish to me. What's the purpose of taking it to a user community that is in no way tied to Microsoft or Asobo, and repeating the same points that have been made a thousand times by other users? 

Edited October 2, 2020 by pstrub
typo

[flyinion 280]

4 minutes ago, pstrub said:

It's been 6 weeks since release, and I would feel stupid to keep complaining on a community forum about the money, when I had the opportunity to get it back.

What about those of us who decided to give them a few patches expecting things to be improved?  Little late to get a refunds now.  Also the $1 thing is pointless, that totally discounts those who just use Steam and maybe found it on there and had no idea about the XBox store (not saying I didn't, just in general).

[pstrub 998]

13 minutes ago, flyinion said:

What about those of us who decided to give them a few patches expecting things to be improved?  Little late to get a refunds now.  Also the $1 thing is pointless, that totally discounts those who just use Steam and maybe found it on there and had no idea about the XBox store (not saying I didn't, just in general).

I have everything on Steam, still I signed up for the $1 trial, just to buy the Premium Deluxe version later on Steam. So yeah, I'd love to see a functioning 787, but I understand that it takes time its time to get there, and screaming and whining on AVSIM doesn't accelerate this a bit, nor does it help the community. Discussing and reporting the bugs and solutions in a calm way does. 

I agree that new issues should be discussed, here and wherever there's a suitable place for it. And I think you can see that I don't deny the issues MSFS has, and it can be frustrating if you're directly affected by them. I for one would've preferred a fix for the VFR map crash before the release of the patch, I think it's a pretty serious issue. Workaround to open it in the beginning and keep it open doesn't really cut it for me... 

I just don't see the point in repeating it to the forum over and over, we're here to form a community, not to help people with their frustrations. 

Edit: At least they acknowledged there are issues with rushed patch releases, and (hopefully) are going to improve on testing. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by pstrub

[Sesquashtoo 2,846]

17 minutes ago, pstrub said:

I have everything on Steam, still I signed up for the $1 trial, just to buy the Premium Deluxe version later on Steam. So yeah, I'd love to see a functioning 787, but I understand that it takes time its time to get there, and screaming and whining on AVSIM doesn't accelerate this a bit, nor does it help the community. Discussing and reporting the bugs and solutions in a calm way does. 

I agree that new issues should be discussed, here and wherever there's a suitable place for it. And I think you can see that I don't deny the issues MSFS has, and it can be frustrating if you're directly affected by them. I for one would've preferred a fix for the VFR map crash before the release of the patch, I think it's a pretty serious issue. Workaround to open it in the beginning and keep it open doesn't really cut it for me... 

I just don't see the point in repeating it to the forum over and over, we're here to form a community, not to help people with their frustrations. 

Edit: At least they acknowledged issues with rushed patch releases, and (hopefully) are going to improve on testing. 

Just my take, Pstrub, but in knowing human nature...and, the stress the world is under with C19....etc...that I'd rather look at the posts that so irate and grate on you...as a vehicle for that poster..that user of MSFS, to healthier   yes...healthily vent his or her frustration at the program...and then, after having done so, (myself included...), we,  (that poster) feels better...can move on....and either put the sim on the system back burner, for another day into the future...or after having 'vented the spleen'...will run it...as a 'it is...what it is....experience.

Venting...releasing stress is healthy. We vent to a friend, to a family member...a sister, a brother about what's happening in our personal lives, ...and for a piece of flight sim software...for that...we come to a public forum...and vent, there. NOTHING wrong with that...the venter is human.

A post on an open forum, does not force anybody to click on it...and I can only suggest, that if anybody sees a title that they even THINK, will grate upon them, for its content...is to simply...not open up the thread.  For those, that don't mind a person getting 'something off their chest'...and knowing by the title hint...that that might be the case...will, with no angst, or grating...read the 'vent'...see the spleen get purged...offer an 'encouraging virtual back-slap...and perhaps thread post, to keep the faith..it will get better...glad to see you have this out of you...etc.  That's all it takes...one of two actions...click on the thread to see how another feels about something...or pass it over entirely, because it will cause YOU angst to participate.

Easy, peasy...

My take.  I can either participate in a thread, (by merely reading it...) or pass it over...my choice. I don't have to lambast the O.P...because I didn't LIKE what he or she said....why?  Because I voluntarily...opened up the thread!  My action...nobody had a weapon to my temple...

Ses

Edited October 2, 2020 by Sesquashtoo