>I've just checked with a guy who's just completing his ATPL>and he said that "no speed restriction" means there is no>speed restriction until told otherwise by ATC, doesn't matter>about Flight Level. He flies with his dad out of Gatwick>occasionally. I can't comment on other airports or other>country rules or regulations as I know nothing :(.not in the US. 250 below 10 is an FAR, unless they CLEAR you above 250knots. i have heard Luftansa get yelled at by Chicago Approach because they implied this or confused it with european rules.250 below 10 is an FAR resulting from the PSA (i believe) 727 colliding with a 172 in SAN in the 1980's.the clearance is implied and noted. they DO NOT issue you a clearance (when you are at 11,000') of "descend to 7,000', 250 knots at 10,000'". they simply say "descend to 7,000" and you eare expected and given space to slow down at 10k.some aircraft won't even let you fly above 250 below 10,000 w/o being so annoying. the emb-145 puts the Vmo at 250 until 10,000 and the clacker will go off if you exceed it.a good rule of thumb is to be at 250kts/10,000' 30 nm from the intended airport. anything above or faster than that in a jet will need some fancier flying than normal. now a turboprop?!?! well let's just say the ole' 1900 could do 240 till 2.5 nm final and easily make the numbers.

Ok Al,Let's approach this clinicly now. All BS aside.Repeat for me the actual instruction or as you heard it and we'll get down to it. Fair enough?Then I'll explain multiple and subsequent instrucitons.Tell me also your experience in real world aviation so I know better how to approach this.

I think PHX also has a STAR with a 12K 250 restriction also.This goes to the phrase "you can add to the rule but not take away from it"

>>sorry I just don't buy it. I guess I asked the wrong forum.http://forums.flightinfo.com/index.phpTry here then.;-)

"This goes to the phrase "you can add to the rule but not take away from it""That begs the question:How are airshows handled? Some of the jets at the recent Glendale airshow here in Phoenix were going well above 250 KIAS during their fly-bys. Glendale is positioned between Sky Harbor and Luke. Although much closer to Luke, any Airshow there is most certainly going to impact traffic around KPHX. In order to break 250kts and not be called on the carpet for it, how are these airshows dealt with?-John

John,That's totally different. Aerobatic/airshow rules are special authorizations where airspace is blocked off in advance.Didn't know you were from the PHX area :-) I love going there to visit.

>"This goes to the phrase "you can add to the rule but not>take away from it"">>That begs the question:>>How are airshows handled? Some of the jets at the recent>Glendale airshow here in Phoenix were going well above 250>KIAS during their fly-bys. Glendale is positioned between Sky>Harbor and Luke. Although much closer to Luke, any Airshow>there is most certainly going to impact traffic around KPHX. >In order to break 250kts and not be called on the carpet for>it, how are these airshows dealt with?>>-John >>>1. Airshows are given their own protected airspace and will be NOTAM'd as such with cautions of high speed aircraft within the flight restriction area.2. Military aircraft are exempt from the FARs and do not need clearance to exceed 250kts below 10000 at anytime.

Expanding on that, Given that the Glendale and Maryvale area are collection points for incoming and outgoing aircraft, the coordination for these type of passes probably have some sort of floor and ceiling as well as well as a horizontal limit.They may even go as far as to require a coordination to the PHX tower or tracon before initiating the actual act.

>>So my question once again is, WHY would the ATC inform a pilot>climbing at 2 thousand feet to not exceed 280 knots???So the crew can be planning ahead, among other things. Don't know why that's so hard to understand. I'm not a turbo driver, but even in an Arrow, it helps immensely to know what to expect in the next few minutes concerning speed and altitude changes. If ATC waited until the plane was at 9900 feet to spring a speed restriction on them, the crew would probably be scrambling to comply. In the absence of any other instructions, they would've already been preparing to accelerate without restriction.

its not that its hard to understand, its that the phrasing of it by the ATC made it appear as if they were given the 280 knot restriction right away.

ok here goesdeparture, united 122 with you passing 1 for 5united 122, radar contact, climb and maintain 9 thousand, do not exceed 280 knotsroger, do not exceed 280 knots, united 122

Well, what we're telling you is they were not. Plain and simple.

The only thing I can think of is that this aircraft might have been to heavy to maintain 250 or lower during the climb out and made prior coordination somewhere along the line with ATC. So for the safety of the flight ATC was 'able' to clear them to 280 KIAS.Maybe due to other departures in front of them they could not give them a higher speed in this case.Given the flight number you just mentioned it's sounds like a long haul flight. I'd have to look it up. That could make sense that they might be heavy initially.I suspect however, that something got lost in your translation there, it's hard to say since we weren't there. I do know that this rule is heavily enforced, and I've never heard personally of a higher speed being issued in all the airspace I've been in.We have told you the rule though and given you the only authorized exceptions to that rule.I hope this clears the issue once and for all.Edit: What I do when I have a question is call the Tracon or Tower for clarification. I believe in your case you could contact your nearest FSDO and they'd be happy to assist you further. Do a little outside research on this issue if you feel you need to. There's nothing wrong with that.

i was listening to departure and tower freq and it was issued to every AC departing except for the skywest emb120s for obvious reasons

Ok, now I just don't believe you heard what you thought you heard...ROFL. I halfway think now that you're just trolling. It's clear by your other reponses that you don't want to learn just argue.I feel really stupid for getting baited by you....lol. You got me that's for sure.Have a nice flight...