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Jeff Nielsen

Do not exceed xxx knots

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250 until above 10000, then no faster than 280.

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this is a myth...the speed restriction is a standard BUT can be increased at anytime by the ATC. This is often done with heavy lifts out of major B class airspace in the US.

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I've been on commercial flights before where a 280kt speed restriction was placed between 10000 feet and the flight levels--it's not that uncommon. And I have been on commercial flights below 10,000 feet where we've been able to kick it up a notch and fly faster than 250kts. O/T I'm reminded of two flights where I got where I was going in a hurry. One was a 90 minute flight between Seattle and Phoenix--covering approx 1000 miles during that time due to high tailwinds. Another was between Phoenix and Atlanta--from wheels up to touchdown the flight was two hours, fifty nine minutes. I used to hate arriving into O'Hare early since gate space was so tight there, we'd end up in the "penalty box". I guess in that situation, it's "Do not exceed 0 knots" :)-John

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First of all it's not a myth...ROFL....it's the rule. Unless ATC tells you otherwise or for the safety of the flight.I'd also be surprised of they were still on the tower freq at 10 thousand feet. Then again, it's been a while since I've actually used the facilities at LAX.Edit: never mind I see that you guys were metaphorically speaking. You can say the same about left hand traffic.I should have also added the phrase 'as published' as well.

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but this was the airplanes contacting departure right after tower. for example "united 333 radar contact, climb and maintain 13 thousand. do not exceed 280 knots"the airplanes are at about 1-2k feet at this time. does that do not exceed xxx knots mean there is no 250 knot speed restriction?

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> And I have been on commercial>flights below 10,000 feet where we've been able to kick it up>a notch and fly faster than 250kts. >>-JohnI am assuming you are witnessing this as a passenger on a commercial flight. How did you know you were exceeding 250kts?

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Speaking of advanced coordination; I was amazed last year when flying out of DEN that they were handing aircraft off to the tower freq when they were barely out of the gate. DEN was one busy son of gun.Ground would give you your taxi instructions and tell you to contact the tower and that was that. Talk about getting the aircraft off your books...lol.The takeoffs were pretty close as well. As planes were rotating they were giving the next guy his takeoff clearence.

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>but this was the airplanes contacting departure right after>tower. >>for example >>"united 333 radar contact, climb and maintain 13 thousand. do>not exceed 280 knots">>the airplanes are at about 1-2k feet at this time. does that>do not exceed xxx knots mean there is no 250 knot speed>restriction?No, it does not. The assigned altitude of 13,000 is above 10,000, which means United 333 could have accelerated to any airspeed less than Mach 1.0 the moment it broke 10,000. To preempt United 333 from doing anything the departure controller does not want to see in his sequence of blips leaving LAX, he can give United 333 a speed restriction, such as 280kts, at anytime, even if United 333 is currently below 10,000 where there is a more restrictive 250kt limit. The only way United 333 could have exceeded 250kts below 10,000 is if he the controller specifically stated "no speed limit below 10,000."

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the 13 thousand was just an example, so unless you hear no speed limit there is always a speed limit?

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If you are going faster than 250 kts below 10,000 feet and it can be proven, you WILL get violated. Its a hard rule and in 16 years doing this I have NEVER seen atc allow it. Restricting speed happens when we run into spacing problems due to diferent type aircraft climbing at different speeds. The restriction is for when you accelerate above 10,000. Most airliner types accel to anywhere between 300-330kts IAS on climb above 10,000. Sometimes the smaller regional jets slow us down and we get the restrictions on the climb. Occasionally we stay slow (below about 280-290 KIAS) if there is chop around as its a better ride and most aircraft have limitations when encountering turbulence so sometimes that is the reason.Hornit

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Good explination Jim and Kevin. I sort of got off on tangent there. I too have never heard a controller issue a higher speed then 250 IAS when at or below 10K. It sounds like in the above controller's phrase, he's trying to make the workload a bit easier for the next guy. It's just something when flying you understand what's going on while in the 'heat of things' so to speak. In other words; the 250 restriction still applies in addition to the 280 controller restriction while climbing from 10K to 13K. I think the general rule of thumb is you can't take away from the rule but you can add to it. :-)

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so you've never seen it allowed, does that mean it isn't allowed? if you ever become pilot of a heavy jet, especially a 747, then you might change your tune.ive heard it all the time, from pilots on various forums, in dvds i own, and in ATCs speaking on my scanner

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even if the directions were climb and maintain 7 thousand, do not exceed 2-8-zero knots?

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If you hear a controller issue that instruction, then you'd better ask him to repeat it, seriously.

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Al,You really need to know who your talking to."Hornit", Jim is a Delta Airlines Captain...rofl, with many years of experience. Give us a friggin break would you?As for me, I'm just a lowly PPL who has happened to fly into LAX as PIC (once). LAX is my old stompin grounds as a pax.

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To add an international perspective, the flight procedures at major airports in the UK impose a speed limit of 250kts for the first 20 to 30 miles which applies to all departures while flying below FL100 in order to improve departure flow. The transition altitudes are 6000 ft at both Gatwick and Heathrow. ATC tries to lift the restriction as soon as possible and will say "No ATC speed restriction" to remove it.I can see no reason why ATC should not intruct a higher speed to improve flow control if a gap develops between two aircraft.

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>I can see no reason why ATC should not intruct a higher speed>to improve flow control if a gap develops between two>aircraft.noise abatement.Not departure but arrival instructions around Schiphol state very specific speed limits.over 250 knots until Y miles out, then 220 knots max until X miles out, then 180 knots max., etc.All at discretion of ATC of course, who sometimes will slow people down to avoid conflicts but are not at liberty to give higher speeds unless in emergencies.

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>the 13 thousand was just an example, so unless you hear no>speed limit there is always a speed limit?Yes.

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>so you've never seen it allowed, does that mean it isn't>allowed? if you ever become pilot of a heavy jet, especially a>747, then you might change your tune.>>ive heard it all the time, from pilots on various forums, in>dvds i own, and in ATCs speaking on my scannerThere are three cases in the USA where you will find on your scanner, aircraft exceeding 250kts below 10000.1. If the aircraft is a heavy Heavy (ie heavy 747) whose minimum maneuvering speed for their current weight exceeds 250kts, in which case the pilot can advise ATC of their need for a speed greater than 250kts.2. If you were scanning the Houston George Bush Intercontinental Airport circa 2002-2003 when the FAA ran an experiment to see if traffic could be increased by allowing departures to exceed 250kts below 10000 within its Class B.3. If it is the following situation as overheard the one evening.ATC: "Southwest ### say your speed."Southwest ###: "250."ATC: "Ok, the guy ahead is doing 250 and you've got 80 knots on him."Southwest ###: "They just polished our plane."

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>If you are going faster than 250 kts below 10,000 feet and it>can be proven, you WILL get violated. Its a hard rule and in>16 years doing this I have NEVER seen atc allow it.>>HornitI'm suspecting JohnCi is sitting back there watching the groundspeed with a GPS or "Airshow" up on the monitors. Of course with the TAS difference and a little tailwind, those passengers back there will often see groundspeeds in excess of 300kts even though we're below 10,000 doing 250 or less.

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I mainly fly from Gatwick to the Iberian Peninsula. We frequently fly 300 to 320kts @ 3000' after departure from Gatwick. First ATC instruction after switching from tower to London is almost always accompanies by "No ATC speed restriction" as mgh mentioned. During arrivals in to Gatwick it is not uncommon to get "No speed restrictions" or "Maintain high speed" Same for arrivals in Spain and Portugal. The rule here in Europe is, as far as I know, 250kts below 10000' unless otherwise instructed by ATC. (In Spain the alt is 12 or 14 thousand I think, not sure, don

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"I'm suspecting JohnCi is sitting back there watching the groundspeed with a GPS or "Airshow" up on the monitors"Negative,On these flights I have listened in to ATC comms which UAL (and American at one point) made available on in flight audio. That, and my experience with flight and ATC, makes me believe I know what I am hearing. The one instance where we were cleared for faster than 250KIAS was on approach into SFO several years back, and we had descended below 10,000 ft. Why we were cleared for the faster speed, I don't know, but it may have been for some good reason privy only to ATC.-John

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one time climbing out of ORD we were at 5000' and they told us to pick it up to 280 knots.i replied, "we are at 5-thousand, understand you want 280 knots?""affirmative." he replied.of course there are the stories of "american XXX is your airspeed 250 knots?""uh....it is now""yeah thats what i thought..."nasa form after flight.

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>"Hornit", Jim is a Delta Airlines Captain...rofl, with many>years of experience. Give us a friggin break would you?>good for him, and the "never" exceed the speed limit is obviously wrong, as proven by the posts here.I am glad he is a captain, but he should know that obeying the speed limit at all times is not possible for heavy aircraft, and sometimes waived during off hours.Why don't you give ME a break? why do you and others always have to run in and claim to know it all? I have seen first hand and on DVDs the speed limit being broken, but now I should just STFU because a "real captain" with years of experience tells me it NEVER HAPPENS?

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