Upcoming X-Plane 12

[mSparks 2,086]

1 hour ago, mjrhealth said:

Considering what they have done with the resources they have, there is absolutely nothing for them to be shamed of, maybe just these incessant complaint from experts, maybe they should be ashamed of there childish behaviour. We demand, we demand, the incessant cry of people today. I was happy with my balsa plane driven by elastic band as a kid, I guess know where I came from, and " APPRECIATE" what I have.

100% agree - personally.

But, otoh

https://www.x-plane.com/2019/11/livestream-qa-nov-19/

Quote

UPDATE: We’ve removed the recording of our livestream because it didn’t explain how we’re going to compete with Microsoft, wasn’t any fun to watch and it’s too soon to reveal the details of what’s coming next. We’re working now and will show the results when they’re ready to actually be seen!

 

1 hour ago, GoranM said:

I never understood this.  Late for what?

See above.

1 hour ago, GoranM said:

I've never had a vulkan or Metal device loss error.  These are down to overclocking.  Something I don't do.

unfortunately not. They are the GPU equivalent of an "uncaught exception", reducing clock speeds can reduce the probability of them occurring in a multithreaded environment, but doesn't solve the underlying issue 

e.g.

 

1 hour ago, GoranM said:

I KNOW they are.  Otherwise they wouldn't be pumping almost all their resources into it.

I'm talking specifically about progress towards XP12 - not what they have already delivered or plan to deliver.

XP12 was originally slated for beta in mid 2020, then Ben would have something to say in the first few weeks of 2021, we are now in April 2021 and

https://developer.x-plane.com/2021/03/departures-and-arrivals-lua-bug-fixes-g2-controllers-and-stuff/

Quote

Most of what we are working on is still in the lab and hasn’t escaped yet.

AKA

Right now they don't have anything new to show that they are both proud of and confident they can deliver.

If Laminar aren't confident enough they can deliver what they are working on to talk about it, I dont think its particularly valid to criticise people for saying they are not confident in their ability to deliver.

I mostly do, seeing what DCS have achieved actually gives me more confidence we'll see great things soon, but .....

Edited April 17, 2021 by mSparks

[GoranM 3,764]

Ok.  This'll be fun.

The removal of their stream.  Let's discuss this.

They removed the stream because, from what I can gather, nothing they say will be good enough.  The flight sim market is predominantly MSFS.  The number of people screaming "bull$**" to ANYTHING LR say makes it not worthwhile for them to say ANYTHING.  

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

See above.

They're not late for anything.  There is no deadline.  Austin doesn't answer to anyone.  X-Plane is his baby, and if he wants to release XP12 in 10 years, that's entirely his prerogative.  What I know he will do is release it when it's ready.  Not rush it, like Asobo rushed MSFS.

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

unfortunately not. They are the GPU equivalent of an "uncaught exception", reducing clock speeds can reduce the probability of them occurring in a multithreaded environment, but doesn't solve the underlying issue 

And if they hadn't implemented it, people would be screaming, "Why don't you implement vulkan??"

They're working on getting the remaining bugs out.  But given they're a small team, and getting a few issues among a few users, I'd say they're doing very well.  Windows still crashes.  Even after 40 years of being in the market.

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

XP12 was originally slated for beta in mid 2020, then Ben would have something to say in the first few weeks of 2021, we are now in April 2021 

Aside from the fact that I'm glad they're working on it, and making sure it's working before letting it out, where is the link or any other info that XP12 would go into public beta in mid 2020?  I'm genuinely curious.  

I've been in this dev game for 12 years, and I know that any ETA needs to be multiplied by 3.  So if it's 6 months before it's ready, that's really 18 months.  

32 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Right now they don't have anything new to show that they are both proud of and confident they can deliver.

If Laminar aren't confident enough they can deliver what they are working on to talk about it, I dont think its particularly valid to criticise people for saying they are not confident in their ability to deliver.

I mostly do, seeing what DCS have achieved actually gives me more confidence we'll see great things soon, but .....

I haven't shown anything new of what I'm working on, despite the constant questions of "Can you show your progress so far??", and I'm very confident in how it looks.  I just don't want to show it because I'm not comfortable showing it.  That's all.  There is no agenda and no secret.  I've shown it to our closed group of testers and consultants, which numbers less than 5, and they've all said it.  "You should show this!!"

When I feel like showing it, I will.  Austin could, very easily, have the same or similar mindset.  

Edited April 17, 2021 by GoranM

[mjrhealth 820]

38 minutes ago, GoranM said:

When I feel like showing it, I will.  Austin could, very easily, have the same or similar mindset.  

And all you will get is,

Its not fast enough

Its not good enough

Its not real enough

We want you to make it less real its to hard to fly,

The rivet count is wrong.

The color of the passenger eyes is wrong.

It works on everyone elses machine not on mine it must be broken - reminds me of someone.

FPS are too high

FPS are too low.

 

 

 

[GoranM 3,764]

8 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

It works on everyone elses machine not on mine

If I had a dollar every time someone said this, I could easily retire. 

[mSparks 2,086]

4 minutes ago, GoranM said:

They removed the stream because, from what I can gather, nothing they say will be good enough.  The flight sim market is predominantly MSFS.  The number of people screaming "bull$**" to ANYTHING LR say makes it not worthwhile for them to say ANYTHING.

Did you catch it?

The only thing I came away with was it looked like they had had a huge fight before hand. The marketing guy didn't say a word, and all they talked about with any substance was mobile.

24 minutes ago, GoranM said:

And if they hadn't implemented it, people would be screaming, "Why don't you implement vulkan??"

Hey, I understand why they did it, you understand why they did it, think we are both also well aware that what they have achieved is a major achievement and a HUGE boon for both XP11 and anything they want to do with XP12.

XP12 hasn't been announced yet.

27 minutes ago, GoranM said:

where is the link or any other info that XP12 would go into public beta in mid 2020?  I'm genuinely curious.

It was discussed in the pulled Q&A (November 2019), they were suggesting they would have new stuff to show in ~6 months (iirc, slept since then and had COVID twice), with a "long tail" of Vulkan fixes at the same time. They've also discussed in that they didn't expect getting vulkan to stable would take this long and be this much work.

30 minutes ago, GoranM said:

 I've shown it to our closed group of testers and consultants, which numbers less than 5, and they've all said it.  "You should show this!!"

When I feel like showing it, I will.  Austin could, very easily, have the same or similar mindset.  

There is much conflict between dev and marketing, and marketing is generally the unpleasant side of dev. Plus as soon as you announce anything you'll have all the METOO products to deal with.

Announcing a product is not as simple as "as soon as there is something nice to show"

XP12 hasn't been announced yet.

53 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I've been in this dev game for 12 years, and I know that any ETA needs to be multiplied by 3.  So if it's 6 months before it's ready, that's really 18 months.  

^^This, which I worded as "not confident they can deliver".

Its one thing to have a nice tech demo in the lab, something else entirely to get that ready for beta testing, and a galactic mile from there to a finished stable product

XP12 hasn't been announced yet. Let alone got close to anything more than that.

[mjrhealth 820]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

Its one thing to have a nice tech demo in the lab, something else entirely to get that ready for beta testing, and a galactic mile from there to a finished stable product

You have MS2020, if you are unhappy, they are "still" developing, Wonder what happens when the money runs out and the investors scream, "wheres our return",

As I said, you have being around our other friend to long, you sound just like him.

Edited April 17, 2021 by mjrhealth

[mSparks 2,086]

55 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

You have MS2020

If you want to frame it in MSFS terms.

MSFS announced in June 2019.

XP12 isn't even at that stage yet.

Edited April 17, 2021 by mSparks

[mjrhealth 820]

29 minutes ago, mSparks said:

If you want to frame it in MSFS terms.

MSFS announced in June 2019.

XP12 isn't even at that stage yet.

I didnt know it was your problem ???  Your not satisfied now you never will be.

[CFIJose 5,485]

8 hours ago, GoranM said:

librain does work in vulkan, but only if librain settings are set to low.  This is getting looked at, but, due to commitments on another project, the author is not considering it a priority at the moment.  

How do you set librain settings to low?

I've never touched the settings since the plugin is located inside each airplane.

Thanks.

[GoranM 3,764]

1 hour ago, DJJose said:

How do you set librain settings to low?

I've never touched the settings since the plugin is located inside each airplane.

Thanks.

In the plugins drop-down menu in the sim. 

[mtaxp 666]

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

If you want to frame it in MSFS terms.

MSFS announced in June 2019.

XP12 isn't even at that stage yet.

x-plane 11 was announced 4-5 months before a stable release, couple of months before public beta. 

Correction: it was on flightsimcon2016, started with 10.50 beta then they talked future features, what eventually became x-plane 11. So not even officially announced until almost public beta was ready.

Edited April 17, 2021 by mtaxp

[Bjoern 1,157]

11 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

Be surprised if we see Carenado anytime soon, they must be making a killing on the  other side, and probably far less complaints.

Also better returns if they can do everything in-house and won't have to rely on third parties to code systems and so on.

[mSparks 2,086]

2 hours ago, mtaxp said:

Correction: it was on flightsimcon2016

and its still in beta today, 5 years later.

which is almost exactly the trajectory msfs is expected to follow, which was:

4.5 years of silent development

announced 6 to 12 months before the public first get it

5 more years until its final. 

___

I expect similar for XP12 after it is announced, thats pretty much the development cycle.

[peroni 541]

8 hours ago, GoranM said:

In the plugins drop-down menu in the sim. 

hmmm, I don't see any entry for librain in the plugin menu, is it just me?

Edited April 17, 2021 by peroni

[GoranM 3,764]

3 hours ago, peroni said:

hmmm, I don't see any entry for librain in the plugin menu, is it just me?

It’ll be different if you’re on a Mac. I’m away from the computer for now. I can check when I get back.