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Cactus521

EU bans 90+ airlines

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Is the Democratic Republic of Congo some sort of free haven for crappy airlines?-

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The list is both short (considering the total number of operators in the business) and misleading (in that many if not most of the operators listed don't operate to Europe anyway).The number 90 is furthermore misleading in that multiple entries for some airlines are included when only part of their fleets are banned (like Buraq Air, which has 3 entries listing explicitly which aircraft are and are not banned per type and class of restriction).

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It's because Democratic Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Liberia, and Swaziland obviously don't have acceptable regulatory procedures - if they have any. It's not surprising to see Liberia on the list, given its well known approach to maritime regulation and safety.

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flag of convenience countries exist in aviation as they do in shipping.No safety or operational standards, no reporting or anything, no taxes to be paid (instead pay some token bribes to certain officials), makes those countries extremely convenient to register your company.You basically don't have to conform to any laws of the country you're actually operating in because your ship (or aircraft) and company don't fall under that country's laws.Zaire (or DRC as it's currently known) has effectively no government at all, just some tribal chiefs fighting each other almost constantly.Liberia is similar.Swaziland is a monarchy ruled by royal decree by some tribal chief or other.Eq. Guinea is probably no better off.In all such places you can get any piece of paper signed with an official looking stamp if you only bring enough money, drugs, or weapons.

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>It's because Democratic Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea,>Liberia, and Swaziland obviously don't have acceptable>regulatory procedures - if they have any. It's not surprising>to see Liberia on the list, given its well known approach to>maritime regulation and safety.Thats like saying if something isnt "accepted" by the FDA in the US, it shouldn't be on the market as a drug. Ridiculous beuocracy that gets in the way of smaller companies from dirt poor countries trying to make a living and allowing wealthy nations to continue their stranglehold on this as well as other markets.

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It's funny to see, that the beuocrats of the EU don't even know, how to spell Libya correctly! :-lol

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>It's funny to see, that the beuocrats of the EU don't even>know, how to spell Libya correctly! :-lolWhat's even funnier, is that you don't realize they aren't talking about Libya. ;)

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>Thats like saying if something isnt "accepted" by the FDA in>the US, it shouldn't be on the market as a drug. Ridiculous>beuocracy that gets in the way of smaller companies from dirt>poor countries trying to make a living and allowing wealthy>nations to continue their stranglehold on this as well as>other markets.Having lived and traveled the world over, I am quite happy to have both the FAA and the FDA standing as a sh**-shield at the gates of my homeland. The safety of a government's citizens should carry a tad more weight than the hurt wittle feelings of the poor wittle companies that can't manage to meet basic safety standards.I've been up-close to aircraft from some of these banned outfits...veritable accidents looking for a place to happen. No civilized country should have to assume the risk they pose to those around them.Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

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shouldn't that be the choice of the passengers? and what about the air france runway excursion or southwest runway excursion? is that bad safety records? Or is it OK for "civilized" society to make mistakes but anyone else who cannot afford such inspections or who does not have political connections should be banned whenever some mistakes happen?

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interesting how no Libya carriers are on there.

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"shouldn't that be the choice of the passengers?"The problem isn't just the passengers--it's the people on the ground. They have no choice, other than hoping the government is keeping a watchful eye on their safety. Like Bob, I've flown in the third world and I've seen examples of the aircraft these types of restrictions protect us from. Not everything is about the big bad U.S. or E.U. trying to stomp on the little guy. Some of these restrictions save lives. -John

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"interesting how no Libya carriers are on there."I saw Buraq air listed right towards the bottom of the list.

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Is a drug that isnt FDA approved unsafe?

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"Is a drug that isnt FDA approved unsafe?"Some are, some aren't. But I would rather trust the FDA than some of the snake oil sold offshore, some of which can kill me. But this isn't about the FDA, is it? Rationalization is dangerous, because it can strip us of all common sense.-John

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it isnt the FDA but the FDA is another example of paying a beuocracy to "certify" your product, even though countless certified products are still dangerous.

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ah I see there are 2. thanks for pointing that out

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You make good points, except I never said it was oppressive, just quite difficult for a poor country wanting to compete in the world market to feed their population to be forced to comply with certain safety procedures which end up consting money these countries dont have (quite ironic too considering the FAA has been so lax on many safety requirements, and usually wants until a bad accident to enforce something. How long has El Al had secure cockpit doors for example?)or just a political fallout can cost some airline its safety status because of the whims of knee jerk politicians

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oops, I mean usually WAITS until a bad....

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Nobody is gonna convince me that politics doesn't play a role in all this.

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>Nobody is gonna convince me that politics doesn't play a role>in all this.Ofcourse politics plays a big roll here,.....the good old "corupted" politic. Beeing an aircraft broker since 15 years, I have come very close to that "political" procedure in some of those countries.So, basicly, if you want to start an airliner,...you know what countries you have to look at, if a government stamp is easier to get than a proper AOC. ;-)However, I want to make it very clear that there are only a handful countries, where this "politic" can be entertained. ;-)http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifMy specs are:Dell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVoCatalyst 5.9ATITool V0.24DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP1E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"240Gb (2x120) 7200rpm HDLacie 250Gb Extern HD

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If I need to accept poor safety standards and substandard products from "poor countries" (while not accepting them from our own countries of course) just to help "poor countries compete" than I'd rather not have them compete as that's not competition.And as I refuse to accept substandard products and standards from my own country's companies that just won't fly.These countries get everything already. Free loans, massive aid programs making it so the people there never have to work because everything is provided for them (or would be if their governments weren't so incredibly corrupt that 95% of what is sent there from my tax money disappears into Swiss bank accounts immediately).If they still can't compete it's simply because they're not even trying, because it's easier to claim you're treated unfairly because you're black than it is to make an effort to survive in a free world market.

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"These countries get everything already. Free loans, massive aid programs making it so the people there never have to work because everything is provided for them"You are skating on thin ice here Jeroen with many of our members. I've traveled to these countries, and if you consider living in a thatched hut with dirt floors having "everything already" and having to walk five miles to get water and bathe "never having to work", I don't think you understand the subject you're trying to tackle here. I do agree--many of these countries get aid and that aid vanishes into the accounts of a very few strongarm dictators. But those few aren't the populace as a whole, which suffers incredibly from the corruption that aid programs can aggravate."If they still can't compete it's simply because they're not even trying, because it's easier to claim you're treated unfairly because you're black than it is to make an effort to survive in a free world market."This comment is way out of line. Now you are injecting racism into this thread. No one has mentioned color of skin to make any of their points here, except for you. Please cease and desist immediately. PM me, Ken or Tom if you have any issues with what I am saying -John

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