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Guest jboweruk

Why the 2D cockpit is baaaad for you!!!

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Here it is.........The proof.........right from a CFI :( I used to instruct H.S. students that were part of the schools aviation program. They didn't fly much but got a lot of classroom instruction and MSFS time. In the airplane, almost ALL of them flew with their eyes glued to the instruments. It was VERY hard to get them to unlearn this. After I scolded them, they would start looking outside but eventually regressed right back to the instruments. This ineviatably led to chasing the needles.There you go! Get a good VC, use shiftZ for airspeed and heading, and look out the window once & awhile! :D Link to thread, page four: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=75530&page=4L.Adamson

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The real reason most flightsim users (of any sim) are overly concentrated on the instruments is the lack of tactile and visual feedback from the world around them.The limited depth perception of a flat screen (however good the scenery is) means you need your instruments more than you would otherwise to gauge distance and altitude for example.Pretty much the same for speed, though it's less critical there.And of course the vast majority of flightsim users are concentrating overly much on heavy metal, aircraft flown mostly using only the instruments.The number of complaints that almost always follows when there is no autoland feature or fully functional FMC in a new addon aircraft should tell you enough about that.

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2D panels don't cause this - it's the aircraft we fly in FS and the flight rules the majority use (IFR) that causes new RW pilots to look at the instruments. PPL flying is very visual and you fly by looking out of the window - this is next to impossible in FS.

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>PPL flying is very visual>and you fly by looking out of the window - this is next to>impossible in FS.Certainly not! Try a light GA with a VC, perhaps one that has minimal instrumentation, like the recent Stearman. Then you have to look out most of the time, because there is no ADI.-

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Sorry, Larry, no agreement from me on this one.Have a chat with Peter McLeland.Unlike me, who likes both 2D and VC, and finding good use for both, Peter only uses 2D.As you might know, Peter is a former Royal Air Force fighter pilot and retired British Airways captain, and he does aerobatics with DF aircraft, from the 2D panel, like nothing we could imagine.Frankly, I have yet to find a real pilot and FS user with Peter's level of qualifications. That's why he is on our beta team. ;-)Some of his work appears below.Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpghttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/Previews/C31...00/PM/CBS10.jpghttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/Previews/C31...00/PM/CBS08.jpg

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Doesn't jive with the cfi's I've talked with who said they can always tell the difference of fs'rs-way ahead in all skills and fast to learn (and maybe a little unlearning-like eyes glueing to instruments)...However, even if this were true for all that using Fs would encourage "eyes" glued to the instruments-the vc would still instill bad habits-you are still always looking straight ahead at a computer screen (even though the virtual vc world would be rotating/scrolling)-this would emphasize never turning your head to scan/look around. Better not use the vc either-I can see bad habits there also! ;-) Using a tracker device with a vc-turning your head but keeping the eyes forward on the monitor-oh oh..... more bad habits! :-)I actually think the habit of using the yoke like a steering wheel from years of car driving is a harder habit to get rid of than a possible instrument fixation from using FS-maybe we shouldn't allow people who have driven cars to try to fly-after all-more bad habits?!I did get rid of that habit in 1 hour of repeated different xwind takeoffs in fs4 back in 1989 when I got my initial license-now that was useful(saved a lot of real $ and real time)-and all in 2d!http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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LarryYes there are problems with panel/cockpit representation whether in 2D or VC.I personally fly FS in VC as I find VC gives a better representation of the "Real" than 2D.The ultimate aim of a flight simulator has to be simulating being in a real aircraft flying over real terrain in a real sky.I was in a full motion 737 simulator not long ago and of course this was a real cockpit with motion and sounds.The outside graphics were poor, the sky invironment was poor but the level of adrenaline, apprehension was high.We had a thread a while back which pointed out that using the PMDG 747 or Level D 767 did not simulate the feel of mass of being in a real 747/767 cockpit.For me the Biggest thing missing in FS is that thrill/ fear /apprehension factor which is there real world but so lacking in FS.In our home simulators we are stuck with a 19 inch square screen to display not only the cockpit/panel but the outside world and that fact limits what can be achieved.Sit in a real aircracraft, look straight ahead and you should see motion 90 degrees to the right and left without moving your eyes or head. Move those and that field of vision broadens considerably.The VC is better because it gives better "field of vision" and because it gives a better 3D interpretation of being in the cockpit than the flat, cram it all in 2D panels.Neither is perfect and until someone develops virtual reality headpieces with wrap around vision it is going to be hard to improve that level of reality which is lacking in a flat screen monitor.Ultimate reality is what we all look for from our sims. I am sure there are cleverer ways of extracting more realism from the way panels/cockpits are displayed on a flat screen. Probably an automated and clever blending of VC and 2D pop up windows with auto magnification.Peter

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>Sorry, Larry, no agreement from me on this one.>>Have a chat with Peter McLeland.>>Unlike me, who likes both 2D and VC, and finding good use for>both, Peter only uses 2D.>>As you might know, Peter is a former Royal Air Force fighter>pilot and retired British Airways captain, and he does>aerobatics with DF aircraft, from the 2D panel, like nothing>we could imagine.>>Frankly, I have yet to find a real pilot and FS user with>Peter's level of qualifications. That's why he is on our beta>team. ;-)>I actually use both 2D and 3D myself, depending on the application. The post was a bit of tongue & cheek for straight 2D users.:D As to Peter McLeland, I have chatted with him in the forums. As an ex-fighter pilot, he refuses to even try the virtual 3D cockpit in the RealAir Spitfire, which IMO is excellent, wheather panning or using quick right/left/corner commands for aerobatics. Say's he doesn't like the engine of that model (Rolls Royce Griffen), as I remember. Other than that, he's certainly qualified, and has an excellent history filled website, and contributes a lot, to these these type of websites :D L.Adamsonhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/145875.jpg

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Larry, Goef, Peter,Bottom line, and this will never change:"Ain't nothing like the real thing".Yes, just like the song of the same name.Peter, unless we go with VR goggles, or something like that, don't waste your time looking for some better representation of the panel / cockpit in FS.We 3rd party developers could probably pull something off (sort of, maybe), but 95% of the FS market would refuse to pay for it, and I do not blame MS for not pushing this much further.Besides, I just showed how it matters little in the hands of a real, experienced pilot.He's also named Peter! ;-)This VC / 2D thing is an argument that will never end and, like it or not, there is no winner to it either.For A $50 simulation, MS does an incredible job, and for those who need more, the local airport beckons.Er... let me spell that as "beckon$$$$$$$"Realistic expectations are always essential when it comes to a $50 piece of software such as this.Now, Larry, did you put the bloody wings on your Vans yet???Just having fun with you guys but, as always, telling it like it is. :-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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>This VC / 2D thing is an argument that will never end and, like it or not, there is no winner to it either.For A $50 simulation, MS does an incredible job, and for those who need more, the local airport beckons.

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Larry,"There you go! Get a good VC, use shiftZ for airspeed and heading, and look out the window once & awhile!"Your suggestion is good, however MSFS programmers could take a few clues from the Fly! program when it comes to cockpit design. IMHO, they are approaching that goal. A more realistic VC coupled with a 5 screen multi-monitor (or a wrap-around monitor) along with a stick or yoke (depending on the aircraft) and rudder pedals (with toe brakes) would go a long way towards "As Real as it gets". It will probably be a long time (relatively speaking) before we get such a feature. I was very dis-appointed when the Fly! financiers cut off the funds during the development of Fly! III. Moreso than when Sierra pulled the plug on Pro Pilot development. MSFS Developers & Programmers should not be faced with such a situation.

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It doesn't say that the 2D cockpit is bad. It doesn't even mention the type of cockpit. Your prejudices are showing

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>> Bottom line, and this will never change:>> "Ain't nothing like the real thing".One of the FIRST things taught to me when I started lessons was to get my head out of the instruments! Not because of any simulator-learned habits, but because new students often seem to focus on them. This big, new dashboard of neat-o instruments is very distracting when you are first introduced to flight. Additionally, one of the things that got me sick after my first flight lesson was just that - I spent too much time looking at the instruments and too little looking out. My body wasn't used to the motions we were going through, and a few glass gauges telling me what was going on was nowhere near enough to satisfy my increasingly annoyed inner ear. :) That was a tough lesson learned. >> It doesn't say that the 2D cockpit is bad.>> It doesn't even mention the type of cockpit.>> Your prejudices are showing.Zing!>> There you go! Get a good VC, use shiftZ for airspeed and heading, and look out the window once & awhile! :D Well... turning on Shift-Z would ultimately defeat the flight instructors attempt at keeping you from looking at the instruments, would it not? (And add the distraction of the possible FPS meter.) Hey - I'm all for the VC - so long as TrackIR was a free accessory! :) -Greg

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Figure I might as well add to this thread since it hasn't died down quite yet.On Saturday last weekend, I had a chance to evaluate a flight school using a Zenith 601 similar to one I'd like to buy after I have my Sport Pilot ticket.I was forced to rely on visual vs. instrument references, since I flew "right seat" (the pilot who took me for the eval flight wasn't quite a CFI yet). My Zenith had a glass cockpit, which was hard to see from my POV on the right side of the aircraft when flying. I found I was MUCH better at staying at my altitude and speed vs. relying on the instruments (instrument, really), which is in tune with what many have said here. By picking a point of reference on the horizon and the aircraft and using that to set my speed (pitch), I was able to hold my airspeed and altitude to +/- 2kts and +/- 20 feet.Maybe it was the Zenith, since the Allegro I've flown in all my other lessons is a wee bit touchy, but I believe it was my finally having my head forced out of the cockpit and forced to rely on my gut feelings, hearing and visual cues that helped me manage affairs better. They drilled something into me Saturday trying to share their ground school philosophy--first "Fly" the aircraft. For me I find that's making my senses as in tune with the aircraft as they can be. But heck, I don't even have ten hours yet, so what do I know?-John

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I think the best thing that happened to me was TrackIR as regards that, I can even fly the helo's now thanks to that simple addition of *roll of drums* Situational awareness.So for me now it's TrackIR and VC all the way.

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