I just bought the Lear 35 on discount as a birthday present to myself. I use p3d v4.5 and had only one jet add-on, the Carenado Premier and I wanted something closer to "Study Level". (A2A spoiled). 

I already owned the Reality Xp GTN package and that is what I equipped my Lear with, dual GTN 750s. I am on the fence about buying the FMS addition for the Lear as I know that many older corporate jets are being upgraded with Garmin touch systems. Many CJ-1s have gotten them and Cessnas Mustang comes with the G1000. 

I am wondering in the case of older Lears how common in real world practice that operators are dumping the FMS systems in favor of GTNs. I know if I buy the FMS I will also want to buy the WX Advantage radar from Simmarket, they still sell it. But as I'm seeking authenticity I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to spend nearly 40 dollars on the FMS and radar. Any thoughts?

Thanks.

4 hours ago, Gary1124 said:

I am wondering in the case of older Lears how common in real world practice that operators are dumping the FMS systems in favor of GTNs.

I would be surprised if Lear35 owners are replacing their FMS units with GTN750s except maybe in rare cases . While it is true that the older FMS units have some limitations compared to the GTN750, e.g., the FSW FMS was modeled after a real world unit that does not have GPS approach capability, but what I think happens in the real world is the FMS software in these older units is frequently updated to include additional capability.

The MIlviz weather radar is a nice addition IMO. I know you are currently using P3Dv4.5, but just be aware Milviz had not updated the weather radar for the latest version of P3Dv5.2 apparently because Lockheed Martin had not provided the necessary interface "hooks".  Whether or not things will change with the just released P3Dv5.3 I have no idea, but I'm not optimistic.

Just my $0.02.

Al

7 hours ago, ark said:

I would be surprised if Lear35 owners are replacing their FMS units with GTN750s except maybe in rare cases .

Example:

https://www.fargojet.com/1980-learjet-35a/

Quote:

"Numerous service providers have developed retrofits that enable the Learjet 35A/36A to comply with reduced vertical separation minimum and terrain awareness and warning system mandates. Third parties also have installed new avionics, such as the Universal EFI-890R or Garmin GTN 750 systems."

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/may/pilot/quick-look-learjet-35-36

Edited December 6, 20214 yr by Bert Pieke

2 hours ago, Bert Pieke said:

Example:

https://www.fargojet.com/1980-learjet-35a/

Quote:

"Numerous service providers have developed retrofits that enable the Learjet 35A/36A to comply with reduced vertical separation minimum and terrain awareness and warning system mandates. Third parties also have installed new avionics, such as the Universal EFI-890R or Garmin GTN 750 systems."

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/may/pilot/quick-look-learjet-35-36

Yes, there are definitely examples of Lear35s with GTN750s, but not many percentage wise from what I can tell. As for myself, I just fly GA a/c (biz jets and smaller) and prefer the GTN750 over most FMS units, and especially over those that do not accommodate GPS approaches. For example, the real world Lear35A that "Capt Joe", the Flysimware tech advisor flew, had an older UNS-1 FMS that did not have GPS approach capability. However, as I recall his company did lease a Lear35 for a short while that did have a GTN750 (or maybe it was a GTN650 -- or maybe both.  🤔  ).

Al

Here's one example of a Lear35 with GTN750s:

Edited December 6, 20214 yr by ark

I wonder if FMS equipped biz jets also must have INS referencing???  Without GPS it's the only way to navigate other than fixed navaids luke VOR and NDB.

On 12/6/2021 at 1:52 AM, ark said:

Yes, there are definitely examples of Lear35s with GTN750s, but not many percentage wise from what I can tell. As for myself, I just fly GA a/c (biz jets and smaller) and prefer the GTN750 over most FMS units, and especially over those that do not accommodate GPS approaches. For example, the real world Lear35A that "Capt Joe", the Flysimware tech advisor flew, had an older UNS-1 FMS that did not have GPS approach capability. However, as I recall his company did lease a Lear35 for a short while that did have a GTN750 (or maybe it was a GTN650 -- or maybe both.  🤔  ).

Al

Here's one example of a Lear35 with GTN750s:

That panel is a near ringer for my FSW panel. And I can just pop the X-gauge for a weather picture seeing as RXP hasn't seen fit to try to incorporate that functionality into their products whose real world versions have it.

I have decided that I am going to add the FMS and the WX Advantage for Christmas. Simmarket still sells the radar. And at tax return time I will buy myself the Xtreme Lear 25 to operate with GTN. It would fit better as a GTN upgrade candidate being a much earlier model which never came with an FMS system from the factory.

On 12/6/2021 at 1:15 AM, Gary1124 said:

I wonder if FMS equipped biz jets also must have INS referencing???  Without GPS it's the only way to navigate other than fixed navaids luke VOR and NDB.

Not in the Learjet size aircraft.  You need to get into a super mid-size, Challenger 350, G280, etc. size aircraft before an IRU is added.  IRUs are still quite expenses, and unless the aircraft is intended for overwater operations, an IRU is of little value.  If GPS/GNSS goes down, we revert to VOR or DME/DME RNAV en route navigation (if approved). 

12 hours ago, richjb2 said:

Not in the Learjet size aircraft.  You need to get into a super mid-size, Challenger 350, G280, etc. size aircraft before an IRU is added.  IRUs are still quite expenses, and unless the aircraft is intended for overwater operations, an IRU is of little value.  If GPS/GNSS goes down, we revert to VOR or DME/DME RNAV en route navigation (if approved). 

I suppose Falcon 50s would certainly have the IRU which neither Carando nor FSW simulate. I wonder that nobody since Eaglesoft has done a true study level biz jet and nobody had done a large biz jet. It would seem as if publishers cater to either GA fans or tube liner fans but that middle has always been overlooked.

On 12/29/2021 at 12:10 AM, Gary1124 said:

I suppose Falcon 50s would certainly have the IRU which neither Carando nor FSW simulate. I wonder that nobody since Eaglesoft has done a true study level biz jet and nobody had done a large biz jet. It would seem as if publishers cater to either GA fans or tube liner fans but that middle has always been overlooked.

Some DA50s did have an IRU.  Our old DA50 had one Litton IRS, but we removed that when we did the ProLine 21 upgrade in the early 2000s.  

The Flysimware Lear 35 is not bad. I taught the airplane for 3.5 years in the simulator and was a TCE on it.  Flew it four years after my stint as a sim instructor. I haven't tried any unique malfunctions, but V1 cuts are very close to the Level C simulator, which itself was pretty close the airplane. I know that there are some compromises to keep things reasonable but given the constraints of P3D and the work they put in, she's nice simulation. With the RXP GTN 750 included, she brings a level of realism that not even the so called "study level" simulators can reach.  Still can't do a real procedure turn, HILPT (with holding once around leg type), RF leg, or DME arc in any PMDG product.  Zibo's closer, and there is a new Challenger 350 launching on 7 Jan that looks to turn the study level world upside down in X-Plane.  However, with X-Plane you're stuck flying in the green summertime, which is not bad considering it's 9F outside right now in KICT! 

Xtreme Prototypes Lear 25 is not bad.  V1 cuts are uncontrollable though.  Not enough rudder control to keep the nose straight.  Similar compromises to make things work in P3D. I do like their 3D implementation of the FD108 attitude indicator/flight director. 

I've flown some of the Carando airplanes.  I like their Navajo. The Navajo Chieftan is a favorite real-world airplane of mine.  Not too happy with Carando's jets though. 

I had high hopes for the Aeroplane Heaven Sabreliner.  I flew that airplane for a number of years. They messed up the attitude indicator, and that just take away from the experience. 

I think the Flysimware Lear 35 is about as good a P3D addon as anything on the P3D FlightSim market. If you want to fly a business jet, I would recommend this airplane first for the P3D/FSX simulator.

Happy New Year!

Rich Boll 

 

 

Edited January 2, 20224 yr by richjb2

On 1/2/2022 at 12:36 PM, richjb2 said:

Some DA50s did have an IRU.  Our old DA50 had one Litton IRS, but we removed that when we did the ProLine 21 upgrade in the early 2000s.  

The Flysimware Lear 35 is not bad. I taught the airplane for 3.5 years in the simulator and was a TCE on it.  Flew it four years after my stint as a sim instructor. I haven't tried any unique malfunctions, but V1 cuts are very close to the Level C simulator, which itself was pretty close the airplane. I know that there are some compromises to keep things reasonable but given the constraints of P3D and the work they put in, she's nice simulation. With the RXP GTN 750 included, she brings a level of realism that not even the so called "study level" simulators can reach.  Still can't do a real procedure turn, HILPT (with holding once around leg type), RF leg, or DME arc in any PMDG product.  Zibo's closer, and there is a new Challenger 350 launching on 7 Jan that looks to turn the study level world upside down in X-Plane.  However, with X-Plane you're stuck flying in the green summertime, which is not bad considering it's 9F outside right now in KICT! 

Xtreme Prototypes Lear 25 is not bad.  V1 cuts are uncontrollable though.  Not enough rudder control to keep the nose straight.  Similar compromises to make things work in P3D. I do like their 3D implementation of the FD108 attitude indicator/flight director. 

I've flown some of the Carando airplanes.  I like their Navajo. The Navajo Chieftan is a favorite real-world airplane of mine.  Not too happy with Carando's jets though. 

I had high hopes for the Aeroplane Heaven Sabreliner.  I flew that airplane for a number of years. They messed up the attitude indicator, and that just take away from the experience. 

I think the Flysimware Lear 35 is about as good a P3D addon as anything on the P3D FlightSim market. If you want to fly a business jet, I would recommend this airplane first for the P3D/FSX simulator.

Happy New Year!

Rich Boll 

 

 

The new Clallenger for Xplane may work in upcoming XP12. 

I Love the A2A Aircraft. They are the GA and old piston kings.

On 12/28/2021 at 11:00 AM, richjb2 said:

Not in the Learjet size aircraft.  You need to get into a super mid-size, Challenger 350, G280, etc. size aircraft before an IRU is added.  IRUs are still quite expenses, and unless the aircraft is intended for overwater operations, an IRU is of little value.  If GPS/GNSS goes down, we revert to VOR or DME/DME RNAV en route navigation (if approved). 

How does this work for some of the medevac LJ35's that frequently cross the pond? I've seen a few that run from CYQX to EINN.

On 3/13/2022 at 4:38 PM, sho69607 said:

How does this work for some of the medevac LJ35's that frequently cross the pond? I've seen a few that run from CYQX to EINN.

IRUs are not required for oceanic operations or in the NAT HLA.  What is required is two independent long range navigation systems.  If both of those are based on GPS, then the system must be capable of Fault Detection and Exclusion, and you must perform a FDE prediction based on the requirements of that airspace. Garmin has an on-line prediction program available to run this prediction.  It is similar to, but the same as the RAIM and FDE prediction required for US Domestic operations.  Being SBAS/WAAS does NOT relieve you of this requirement to run the FDE prediction. 

Rich Boll