February 17, 20224 yr 6 hours ago, goates said: As for the strings or trains of satellites people see, those are the ones recently launched that haven't reached their final orbits. Once in their final orbits, they are higher up and harder to see. Starlink has been working with astronomers to reduce the impact, doing things such as adding sun shades, satellites being painted black and adjusting the orientation to minimize the reflection of sunlight. Yes they have and tried different materials etc and that hasn't worked, the concept of parking a satellite in higher orbit is the better concept, yes the reception isn't as good but that is technology that can be developed to improve over time. For me that is the better option. I know we have had a bit if banter back and forth but some older concepts are good concepts. For me that Starlink isn't proven, but if anything also acts as a billboard for the people behind it. Remember the best placement for a billboard is the highest elevation, and that elevation and exposure is the ultimate billboard as well. The Technology can be developed too but so can other positioning of satellites. That level of orbit is non regulated therefore there is nothing to stop Pepsi or anyone else from launching and positioning an array of mirrors in the shape of their logo. Easily done and perfectly legal, even though Pepsi has now dismissed the idea someone else will probably do it. The point I have been making all along is this is the continued commercialization of space and for me its getting ugly Edited February 17, 20224 yr by Matthew Kane Matthew Kane I'm Dyslexic, what's an error to you is not to me
February 17, 20224 yr Author I agree Mathew. Commercialization is like an octopus that spreads it's tentacles everywhere. Junk mail you throw away without ever opening it. The ubiquitous telemarketer calls that never stop. Billboards marring the scenery. Magazines where every other page is an advertisement. Your alluding to billboards in space will probably happen. The Madison Avenue hucksters stop at nothing and if there is a buck to be made by selling advertising space in space it will happen. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
February 17, 20224 yr What part is not proven? It has hit bandwidth speeds and latencies similar to terrestrial cable and DSL as they claimed it would during the beta testing. This makes it useful for things like video calls that people use for work and school, as well as gaming, unlike satellites in higher orbits. Traditional satellites in geosynchronous orbit don't come close to the same speeds or latencies, and costs are often higher. While technology may be able to help with the bandwidth limits, the laws of physics dictate the latency side that no technology can overcome (at least not that we know of). Sure they have more to do with visibility of the satellites, but the updates to reduce the reflectivity have helped. The VisorSat models are about 31% as bright as the original models. Saying they haven't worked at all is a bit disingenuous. Not sure where the idea of unregulated orbits comes from, but Starlink has had to apply and get approval for all of their satellites and the orbits they use. The difference between Starlink and your Pepsi example is that Starlink has an actual use. As for the commercialization of space, it is coming and we do need to make sure there is a good framework in place to manage it. NASA is moving to use commercial space stations after the ISS is deorbited. Edited to add: Regarding an earlier point, Starlink is available in New Zealand as well. https://ruralconnect.co.nz/wp/weve-got-starlink/ Edited February 17, 20224 yr by goates
February 17, 20224 yr 15 minutes ago, birdguy said: I agree Mathew. Commercialization is like an octopus that spreads it's tentacles everywhere. Junk mail you throw away without ever opening it. The ubiquitous telemarketer calls that never stop. Billboards marring the scenery. Magazines where every other page is an advertisement. Your alluding to billboards in space will probably happen. The Madison Avenue hucksters stop at nothing and if there is a buck to be made by selling advertising space in space it will happen. Noel Thanks Noel, Another thing I will say being born and raised in Canada and the differences between Canada and the USA, one thing stands out. When you are driving down the Interstate across the USA, you know when you are approaching the next town long before, because the 'Golden Arches' up on the pedestal is the first thing you see about 3 miles away from seeing the actual town. When you drive across Canada that is a concept that doesn't happen, because they have rules about how high you can place a billboard. Both Canada and USA share a continent with beautiful scenery but the USA is more over the top with the billboards which ruins the beauty, and McDonald's is so prevalent along the Interstate system you don't even notice it anymore. That same concept in low orbit isn't cool with me either, even if it is selling a service it is also highly visible too, just like a McDonald's sign along the Interstate that stands out too, they want to sell you a burger, it is on the horizon, you pull over and buy one. This is the same, it is orbiting in space, you can see it when the sun sets, they want to sell you a package and that level of visibility is an extremely powerful level of marketing, even more so then a 'Golden Arches' along the Interstate. 12 minutes ago, goates said: What part is not proven? Elon Musk got you fooled Matthew Kane I'm Dyslexic, what's an error to you is not to me
February 17, 20224 yr 12 hours ago, Matthew Kane said: We have been seeing them in New Zealand for years now, and the service is not available here and the numbers of them up there keeps growing. We have no light pollution in NZ and no haze so our night sky is crystal clear, my kids point them out all the time You said 7.9 billion looking at them. Last time I checked there weren't 7.9 billion people in NZ. And most of your population won't have seen them. So what if you occasionally do? So do you appreciate now that its not Elon flexing his muscles"? Like, he didn't wake up one day and say " you know what, I'll launch thousands of satellites to show people how awesome I am". Rather, there was a commercial opportunity to make money to fund Starlink.
February 17, 20224 yr 3 hours ago, Matthew Kane said: Yes they have and tried different materials etc and that hasn't worked, the concept of parking a satellite in higher orbit is the better concept, yes the reception isn't as good but that is technology that can be developed to improve over time. For me that is the better option. A higher orbit is not a better concept. It couldn't work at a higher orbit, as the latency would render it useless, as it would have worse latency than conventional satellite internet. They need to be low and lots of them to provide a reasonable service. Conventional satellite internet at a higher orbit isn't the solution SpaceX needed, they are trying to fund Spaceship NOW! Not in twenty years time when satellite internet at higher orbits is viable. They launched dark painted satellites and modified the orientation to aid astronomers. Some astronomers are saying they are still an issue. Musk confirmed that they are working with astronomers in an attempt to do better. Do I support Starlink and think its an awesome idea? No, I don't. Huge numbers of satellites in orbit concern me, although we do need to understand that there's a lot more real-estate between space junk and Elon's satellites than many think. Despite having my reservations about Starlink, I appreciate that it is currently for some, and will be for many eventually, a very useful service. And Of course I'm debating with you because you are making statements that aren't true, like "Elon flexing his muscles and "biggest joke in history" and "just so people can mess about on Facebook and watch Joe Rogan". Edited February 17, 20224 yr by martin-w
February 17, 20224 yr 8 hours ago, Matthew Kane said: Elon Musk got you fooled So no actual evidence that it isn't proven then? A bit of banter is good, but it works better if it's based in at least a few facts. I do appreciate the issues around astronomy and the number of satellites, but I think those can be addressed, and they are. As for the idea that Starlink is trying to replicate the Golden Arches in the sky, why would they be working to reduce the brightness so you can't see them at all? It's not even being advertised for the vast majority of the people on the planet either.
February 17, 20224 yr 6 hours ago, martin-w said: So do you appreciate now that its not Elon flexing his muscles"? Like, he didn't wake up one day and say " you know what, I'll launch thousands of satellites to show people how awesome I am". Rather, there was a commercial opportunity to make money to fund Starlink. Elon tweeting about cryptocurrencies and having the price rise or fall in response is him flexing. SpaceX, (where the CEO is Gwynne Shotwell, not Elon) putting together a business plan to build a commercially viable product to fund the development of Starship is not flexing.
February 17, 20224 yr Author 9 minutes ago, goates said: As for the idea that Starlink is trying to replicate the Golden Arches in the sky, why would they be working to reduce the brightness so you can't see them at all? But if it is feasible, it will be done. Perhaps not by Elon but by somebody if money can be made from doing it. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
February 17, 20224 yr 5 minutes ago, birdguy said: But if it is feasible, it will be done. Perhaps not by Elon but by somebody if money can be made from doing it. So let's wait until someone is actually doing that before using the argument against them.
February 17, 20224 yr Author Oh yeah! Wait until it's done. Once it's done it's almost impossible to have it undone. Waiting until it's done is a fait accompli for Madison Avenue advertising executives. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
February 17, 20224 yr 2 minutes ago, birdguy said: Oh yeah! Wait until it's done. Once it's done it's almost impossible to have it undone. Waiting until it's done is a fait accompli for Madison Avenue advertising executives. Noel That wasn't what I meant. What I was trying to say is that in relation to the topic of this thread, Starlink, that argument doesn't apply, so let's ignore it until we have a case where it actually is relevant. And in the situation you describe, there would likely be plenty of opportunities to prevent it before it happens.
February 17, 20224 yr Author 2 minutes ago, goates said: there would likely be plenty of opportunities to prevent it before it happens. The key word here is likely. The sky at night Is big and bright The Golden Arches What a sight! Burma Shave Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
February 17, 20224 yr Moderator 4 hours ago, birdguy said: Burma Shave Oh my! Noel, you and I are likely among the few still living who remember those Burma Shave signs. My mom, dad and I used to watch out for them when traveling 'cross country. Fr. Bill AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556 Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator
February 18, 20224 yr Author They were a lot of fun Fr Bill. We used to read them aloud. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
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