Everything goes someplace.  Finding that someplace can be a challenge.  We’re looking for someplace to put nuclear waste.  We have not yet found a place for plastics.  Burning fossil fuels goes into the atmosphere and we are trying to work on that.

I was reading a while ago where windmill blades, some 110 feet long, are starting to wear out.  They are made of fiberglass.  So what to do with them.  They have to go someplace. Right now they are being cut up into three sections, loaded on trucks, and delivered either to a landfill or they are simply buried somewhere.  But they do not pollute so there is no danger to the environment save the space they take up.

I got to wondering how they deliver these 110 foot long blades to the windfarm sites in the first place.  Here’s how: 

Noel 

Edited April 15, 20224 yr by charliearon
embed video

Pretty cool.  Unfortunately, not very energy efficient.  Think of the fuel burned to transport these behemoths from the factory to where they will be erected, then 15-20 years later they have to be dismantled and transported to a landfill somewhere for burial, and I haven't even included how much energy it takes to mine the materials and then manufacture the turbines and generators.  Moreover, typical wind turbines are only 25-40% efficient, with the maximum efficiency being achieved with the very largest turbines in the windiest environments.

Like I've said before, there are a few places where it makes good sense to use these things, but they shouldn't be a major part of energy production.  Solar and nuclear power plants are the way to go.

Sadly, despite all the big talk about 2030 or 2035 "net zero emissions", we see lately many countries in Europe and other places desperately hunting for new sources of natural gas and petroleum, and even coal. Some countries need the coal to supply their recommissioned coal-fired power plants so their citizens don't run out of electricity, they need the imported natural gas so they can cook and heat their homes, and they need the oil so they can drive their vehicles. 

Alas, we have a very, very long way to go before we're anywhere close to being "carbon free".

Dave

Edited April 15, 20224 yr by dave2013

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

They are made of fiberglass.  So what to do with them.

 

They can be recycled Noel. But the technology hasn't been implemented on a large scale. It should be. 

 

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

I got to wondering how they deliver these 110 foot long blades to the windfarm sites in the first place.

 

Reminds me of a documentary I saw regarding the manufacture of the Airbus A380, and how they transport the wings. 

10 minutes ago, martin-w said:

They can be recycled Noel. But the technology hasn't been implemented on a large scale. It should be. 

Recycled into what Martin?  Fiberglass particles are almost as dangerous as asbestos.  So they can't be used in wallboard, for instance, because of the fiberglass particles coming loose and being inhaled in a living room or a bedroom.

I would assume that if recycling was viable they wouldn't be burying them.

Noel

45 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Pretty cool.  Unfortunately, not very energy efficient.  Think of the fuel burned to transport these behemoths from the factory to where they will be erected, then 15-20 years later they have to be dismantled and transported to a landfill somewhere for burial, and I haven't even included how much energy it takes to mine the materials and then manufacture the turbines and generators. 

 

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021/06/whats-the-carbon-footprint-of-a-wind-turbine/

 

Quote

 

In fact, it’s possible to calculate a carbon “payback” time for a wind turbine: the length of time it takes a turbine to produce enough clean electricity to make up for the carbon pollution generated during manufacture. One study put that payback time at seven months — not bad considering the typical 20- to 25-year lifespan of a wind turbine. Bottom line: Wind turbines are far from a joke. For the climate, they’re a deal too good to pass up.

 

To put those numbers in context, consider the two major fossil-fuel sources of electricity in the United States: natural gas and coal. Power plants that burn natural gas are responsible for 437 to 758 grams of CO2-equivalent per kilowatt-hour — far more than even the most carbon-intensive wind turbine listed above. Coal-fired power plants fare even more poorly in comparison to wind, with estimates ranging from 675 to 1,689 grams of CO2 per kilowatt-hour, depending on the exact technology in question.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Overall, wind turbines have less of an environmental impact compared to solar panels. These results could be explained by taking a closer look at the LCA and the differences in flows that make wind turbines less impactful than solar panels. 

https://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1025&context=honors_science

 

 

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

Bottom line: Wind turbines are far from a joke. For the climate, they’re a deal too good to pass up.

Quote from my previous post: "Like I've said before, there are a few places where it makes good sense to use these things".

Not saying they're useless, just that they should be utilized in the most efficient and practical way.

Anyway, back to Noel's point about recycling wind turbines:

Yes, they can be recycled, but the technology is not quite there yet to do it on a large scale.  Then there's the high cost.  Here's a quote from a recent article on the subject:

"“Physical and material scientists can recycle blades now," Eric Lantz, wind analysis manager at National Renewable Energy Laboratory told USA TODAY in an email. "But, broadly speaking, scaling up recycling technologies will require more research and development to maximize the value of the recycled materials and improve the economics of the processes.”

Dave

 

15 hours ago, birdguy said:

Recycled into what Martin?  Fiberglass particles are almost as dangerous as asbestos.  So they can't be used in wallboard, for instance, because of the fiberglass particles coming loose and being inhaled in a living room or a bedroom.

I would assume that if recycling was viable they wouldn't be burying them.

Noel

 

It is viable Noel. They are doing it in France.

 

Quote

 

What happens after twenty or thirty years, the average service life of a wind turbine?
Well, in France, they are recycled and the site is remediated! What’s more, a turbine’s end of life is planned before it even begins operating: in facilities that are classified for environmental protection (the French ICPE status), wind turbines are governed by strict regulations. At the start of each project, the future operator has to include an accounting provision proportional to the size of the turbine, a sum that increased in 2020 (€50,000 per turbine plus an extra €10k/MW over 2 MW). For example, a recycling fund of €60,000 is required for a 3 MW wind turbine. N.B. this provision is not exclusive! The operator has to dismantle the turbine and remediate the site, even if their costs are higher than the provision.

 

 

Recycling wind turbines step by step

Wind turbine components are essentially 100% recyclable. Their different parts are dismantled, sorted and then sent through specialised recovery channels. The concrete used for their foundations is reused on other sites, steel and aluminium are sent to foundries or steelworks, and fibreglass from turbine blades is reused for other products, such as fire hydrants. In Port-La-Nouvelle (Aude), ENGIE decommissioned the first wind farm to be connected to France’s national grid, recycling over 96% of its components.

 

And that is not all! Driven by French research centre IRT Jules Verne, the ZEBRA project brings together all players in the wind turbine value chain (new materials development, blade manufacturing, operations, and decommissioning), with the aim of launching 100% recyclable wind turbine blades within the next three years. On March 17, 2022, the first 100% recyclable blade prototype was successfully released. Read more (in French)

 

https://www.engie.com/en/activities/renewable-energies/wind-energy/recycling-wind-turbines

Blade's can be recycled into all manner of things, from powerline structures to towers to roofs to emergency housing to pedestrian bridges. In Germany they are recycling  blades and using it as cement. Solvolysis and pyrolysis is being developed which will provide the industry with more options. Even can be used as pellets in boards for carpentry. Global Fibreglass Solutions are anticipating being bale to recycle blades at a rate of 6000, to 7000 per years. they turn them into  a product called EcoPoly Pellets. they are used to maker parking bollards, pallets, flooring etc.

Unfortunately in the US you don't have a good reputation for recycling, only 10% of your PV cells are recycled whereas in Europe the regulations insist on 85%. Wind turbine blades only make up a tiny fraction of US landfill material but yes, more effort is required.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Yes, they can be recycled, but the technology is not quite there yet to do it on a large scale.  Then there's the high cost.  Here's a quote from a recent article on the subject:

 

You didn't provide a link but I manged to track down your article. Its 6 years old, so not that recent. The technology most definitely is there. See my response to Noel. You are correct regarding cost though. Blades are often dumped in landfill because its easy and cheaper. They only occupy a small percentage of landfill space and are some of the least toxic materials in landfill and of course they aren't going anywhere, they are there to be recycled when the time comes.

 

12 hours ago, dave2013 said:

"Like I've said before, there are a few places where it makes good sense to use these things".

 

Its the other way around. There are a few places were they don't make sense. Lots where they do. 

Obviously wind turbines aren't going to ne installed where they don't make sense. But they are installed and are working and are cost effective in a vast number of places. Offshore wind is now cheaper than new nuclear in the UK. And new, larger scale wind farms are being constructed, as we speak.  

The extent of wind power globally is below. And its impressive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country

In fact 2020 was a global record for wind power, despite a certain pandemic. The global wind power market has quadrupled over the last decade. There has been a huge surge in both China and the US. In fact there is now enough wind turbine power to offset the emissions of the whole of South America. 

I'm not quite sure where these locations are that you imply "don't make sense". Wind turbines can be installed anywhere but obviously there are optimal locations. And one of those optimal locations is "offshore" as some wind is pretty much constant night and day. In fact super mega sized wind turbines are now being manufactured for that purpose. 

So yes, I'm sure there are some locations that aren't optimal for wind power, like shielded from the wind locations, but that still, leaves us with a vast amount of places they are viable. 

https://www.greenorbits.com/can-wind-turbines-be-placed-anywhere/

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2021/02/17/siemens-gamesa-rolls-out-record-breaking-wind-turbine-blade/

 

 

Edited April 16, 20224 yr by martin-w

Why can't the blades be made of aluminum covering  the fiberglass ?  They should last longer than just fiberglass and won't rust...  But I guess they probably would be too heavy for the turbine towers?  

39 minutes ago, overspeed3 said:

Why can't the blades be made of aluminum covering  the fiberglass ?  They should last longer than just fiberglass and won't rust...  But I guess they probably would be too heavy for the turbine towers?  

The limiting factor for blade life isn't weathering of the fiberglass, it's structural fatigue.  A wind turbine blade experiences something like 4 million load cycles per year of operation.  Also, I don't think aluminum has the necessary weight-to-stiffness for those long skinny blades.

1 hour ago, overspeed3 said:

Why can't the blades be made of aluminum covering  the fiberglass ? 

 

As you say, there would be additional weight involved. 

There are alternatives to fibreglass. Certain thermoplastics  fit the bill and are easy to recycle. There are certain thermoplastic composite blades that are not only easy to recycle but cheaper than the blades currently in use. 

OK, folks, this has crossed the threshold into politics, climate change, etc.  Time to move along.