PMDG 737-700 Broken

[FS++ 710]

On 6/25/2022 at 9:55 PM, JRBarrett said:

I doubt it is anything so nefarious. It is fortunate that the old P3D SDK has worked for external hardware up until now, but as the MSFS version of the 737 continues to evolve, and diverge from the P3D version, the old SDK will no longer be compatible.

I suppose the argument could be made “why don’t they release the new SDK before making any changes”, but that is probably not possible as the aircraft is still a work in progress (as is the SDK).

You are entitled to your opinion.

You may not know this if you are new to Avsim.

When the NGX was released for FSX a long time ago, we had it fully interfaced within 5 months and using deep knowledge of the FSX SDK only.

Bryan got upset and started setting up his customers like a pack of wolfs (one thing he is good at) threatening PMDG not to buy their aircraft until they give SDK to Fs2crew.

PMDG kept deleting them one after the other, and they were quite happy to learn there was an alternative (MCE) available for those who want a genuine FO.

Eventually, it became too much for PMDG to handle and Robert decided to have someone create an SDK and even wrote in EULA that even interfacing via keyboard is forbidden, wrongly assuming we were doing it that way.

Bryan was openly accusing us of hacking the plane as he was inept and completely unable to move a single switch.

He started by convincing Randazzo to let him write in his documentation that Fs2Crew is the preferred option.

I confronted Randazzo about this at the time via e-mail and from the exchanges I had with him, he stated that he never used Fs2crew products and that is is neutral about the whole thing. 

At the time, we didn't have a forum on Avsim, so it was probably easy for Robert to see me as an outsider and take what Bryan told him as gospel ( I mean allegations about hacking), since both were neighbours here on this forum.

He tried to play that mind game with Lefteris in FsLabs forum. and the latter ignored him.

He was posting that he didn't want to do a half baked job due to lack of SDK. When he realized everyone was using FSUIPC and LUA scripts to control pretty much any switch (except some dials), and probably found someone who could manage a few clicks, he went ahead and did the half baked job anyway.

Today, things are different and we don't intend to keep silent about this.

 

 

 

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Edited July 5, 2022 by FS++
typo

[FS++ 710]

On 6/25/2022 at 9:53 PM, GKELLERMAN said:

How bad is all this?  As a non-programmer guy I have no clue.  I have my zip with the original release so I could go back to that I guess?

I know this is not MCE's fault but do you have any advice?

BTW: I hate the PMDG forums with there "expert trolls" swooping in and replying with condescending reply's to honest questions.... The standard read the manual posts... Have you read the manual?  Must of been written by a third-grader in his spare time.  

That's the problem with products that don't have a Demo.

They tend to be on the defensive because whatever is written there will greatly affect sales.

Do not worry though.

The plane itself we can interface with or without SDK.

There is something called FSX/Prepar3D/Asobo SDK which lets you retrieve pretty much anything you want, if you bother to code in C & C++.

It has been nore or less the same for the last 15 years.

How else would we interface the Fenix A320 (works in progress) if it wasn't the case as the plane just came out.

Therefore it's for users to decide which is the most important thing.

Having a capable FO to assist them flying the nice plane or the fear of upsetting PMDG.

There is a good chance they come back to their senses and restore what they removed.

So for now, hold on to the version that suits you best.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by FS++
typo

[JRBarrett 3,090]

25 minutes ago, FS++ said:

You are entitled to your opinion.

You may not know this if you are new to Avsim.

I have been an active member of Avsim for over 19 years.

You clearly have serious issues with someone who is a competitor to your own product. Maybe that is fully justified, maybe not - but this kind of slagging of another developer is not a good look for you. Your product should stand on its own merits. Leveling accusations of conspiracy and shady “double dealing” is reckless and irresponsible unless you have absolute proof.

I don’t use multi crew add-ons or hardware panels (other than standard controllers) so whatever changed in the latest release doesn’t affect me (personally). But, if I were ever were to consider purchasing such an add-on, I would have to think long and hard about doing business with MCE based on the way you conduct yourself here. Accusing your competitor of being an incompetent fool (even if true) does not impress me.

The MSFS version of the 737 was initially derived from the P3D version, which is why the old SDK may have initially “worked” - but it is diverging from the P3D version as new features and capabilities are added. Adding a single new field to an existing data structure would be all it takes to break compatibility. The new SDK is probably not “done” because the aircraft itself is not “done” - and probably won’t be for quite some time.

 

[FS++ 710]

1 hour ago, JRBarrett said:

another developer is not a good look for you. Your product should stand on its own merits.

 

Exactly why we have a Demo.

Not trying to "present an image" of the product, by "saying the right thing", "doing the right thing". Hypocritally being nice to a customer when he/she rises an issue only to later delete the post if it happens to hurt sales. 

The result, zero threads deleted from this forum (feel free to check with Avsim staff).

Also why we refuse to pay for "doctored reviews" and "doctored videos". Anyone believes those "likes"?

https://www.socialwick.com/youtube/likes

Good point regarding the structure change from NGX to NGXu, but you can immeditaely see why it wouldn't work because the data you read would be out of sequence. Even then, we delivered support for both free of charge not seizing the opportunity to make it a separate product because we have too much respect for people's hard earned cash to contemplate doing that.

It's not the case here. Apart from events for EFB that won't work because the latter is not there yet, and a few other events, in terms of stability and things like that (which would be the most important thing), the current NGXu SDK does the job nicely. 

Finally, Fs2Crew isn't a competitor at all.

It is essentially a button version. And it has a wider market for sure, since you only need to press a joystick button to tell your co-pilot you are moving to the next phase.

Adding a few speech commands to "activate the button" isn't really voice control. But that's another subject that only those who tried both will understand.

 

[JRBarrett 3,090]

My concern right now (regarding developers that depend on the SDK) is that PMDG has a lot on their plate with the LNAV upgrade, EFB implementation etc. It could push a MSFS-specific SDK implementation onto the back burner. Time will tell…

[severniae 78]

11 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

I have been an active member of Avsim for over 19 years.

You clearly have serious issues with someone who is a competitor to your own product. Maybe that is fully justified, maybe not - but this kind of slagging of another developer is not a good look for you. Your product should stand on its own merits. Leveling accusations of conspiracy and shady “double dealing” is reckless and irresponsible unless you have absolute proof.

I don’t use multi crew add-ons or hardware panels (other than standard controllers) so whatever changed in the latest release doesn’t affect me (personally). But, if I were ever were to consider purchasing such an add-on, I would have to think long and hard about doing business with MCE based on the way you conduct yourself here. Accusing your competitor of being an incompetent fool (even if true) does not impress me.

The MSFS version of the 737 was initially derived from the P3D version, which is why the old SDK may have initially “worked” - but it is diverging from the P3D version as new features and capabilities are added. Adding a single new field to an existing data structure would be all it takes to break compatibility. The new SDK is probably not “done” because the aircraft itself is not “done” - and probably won’t be for quite some time.

 

Give MCE a go, you will see Gerald's product clearly speaks for itself. I've been using MCE for nearly 10 years now, he supports every major release with no additional charge, and you can configure the flows to support just about any real world SOP you can think of.

I've also found the support provided to be among the best and most approachable in the flight sim community.

Having had a few discussions with Bryan, he is not to be trusted, and you should treat all he says with extreme skepticism..

[charlie130 196]

So have we a definitive fix for the PMDG "update", that has degraded my MCE First Officer?

I haven't delved into the "broadcast".ini thingy....not being a coder.

One thing's for sure, flying a 737 complex airliner without a first officer, who runs flows and checklists, is a no go for me! You see it removes the suspension of disbelief in the simulation. Which operator flies a passenger airliner with a solo pilot, like a Cessna?🤭 I am surprised PMDG release their products without reference to the fact the aircraft requires a FO to be a complex aircraft "simulation". Even their DC6 had a built in flight engineer! 

Perhaps PMDG don't mind their 737 being flown by Cessna pilots?😜

If it can be flown by a Solo Single engined qualified pilot, perhaps this aircraft isn't a "complex" simulation after all?

Edited June 26, 2022 by charlie130
Clarity

[threexgreen 3,142]

So how much does this change in the 737 affect MCE after all?

Btw, I didn't download the latest patch from the other thread in time and there's no download opening anymore when clicking on the link. How do I get the release build?

[GKELLERMAN 7]

After PMDG (Robert S. Randazzo) decided to imply that developers of addon software are just stupid they are now pulling an ASOBO and locking threads rather than answer customer's  (you know the people who have invested money into their software) questions about why no warning was given prior to the last update.

It will be a cold day in hell before I give that company another dollar of my money... Arrogance, lies and censorship is never the answer to any problem.

OVER AND OUT.

[severniae 78]

52 minutes ago, GKELLERMAN said:

After PMDG (Robert S. Randazzo) decided to imply that developers of addon software are just stupid they are now pulling an ASOBO and locking threads rather than answer customer's  (you know the people who have invested money into their software) questions about why no warning was given prior to the last update.

It will be a cold day in hell before I give that company another dollar of my money... Arrogance, lies and censorship is never the answer to any problem.

OVER AND OUT.

Have to say I'm with you.

I loved their 747 in P3D, but frankly I'd rather go without than ever give PMDG another penny.

[FS++ 710]

On 6/26/2022 at 4:39 PM, threegreen said:

So how much does this change in the 737 affect MCE after all?

Btw, I didn't download the latest patch from the other thread in time and there's no download opening anymore when clicking on the link. How do I get the release build?

What they did was simple.

The option "EnableDataBroadcast=1" in the plane options panel which would get the plane to broadcast the state of all accessible variables no longer applies. That means FO will see all pumps off, all external lights off etc. He'll still be able to click things but blindly just as VoiceAttack does. And forget the dials. So not usable with the very latest update.

Here is the download link for the very latest MCE Demo

<Link temporarily removed.due to pending update>

If the link is unresponsive, simply copy the line above and paste it to your browser address space.

Those who bought the plane early, could still just install the initial package. Those who updated before the vey latest should be fine as well (refrain from updating). Only those who used the very latest update would be affected.

At least this time, they can't accuse anyone of any wrongdoing since the SDK was enabled on day one.

And glad we have this approach of "eat all you can" (60 complex planes supported across the entire family of flight simulators in a single package).

If we released a separate package exclusively for PMDG 737, we would have to fight it off because it's nothing less than a stab in the back. Thanks Mr Randazzo.

I still believe none of this would have happened were it not for that FS DJ hiding in Thailand. The same guy who tried to get me banned from MCE forum a few years back. I kid you not.

PMDG has a fine airplane, I think very few people would contest that. They were happy to have the SDK enabled from day one and didn't even make a fuss about the EULA as they did in FSX and for good eason. It's Microsoft that owns the flight simulator. they are the ones who really can dictate terms and conditions.

The forum expert manipulator whose sole engineering skils are "engineering fallouts between individuals" then decided to rain on the parade.😥

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by FS++

[Stearmandriver 2,304]

So to clarify: there's currently no way to make MCE work fully with the latest update of the PMDG 737, and won't be until PMDG releases their new SDK?

I fully undurstand this was caused by PMDG and not MCE, just wanting to clarify what might happen going forward. 

[charlie130 196]

39 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

So to clarify: there's currently no way to make MCE work fully with the latest update of the PMDG 737, and won't be until PMDG releases their new SDK?

I fully undurstand this was caused by PMDG and not MCE, just wanting to clarify what might happen going forward. 

Yes I believe you are correct.

I just checked and the line ;

EnableDataBroadcast=1

Is still there in the .ini. So as Gerald says...its not functional anymore and MCE FO is a drunk FO!!! He doesnt know switch states and you may as well use Vice Attack...Sorry Voice Attack!

So PMDG have bollocksed my MCE First Officer, by their last update, which I foolishly clicked on and ruined my day!!

The arrogance and ignorance of PMDG appauls me.

Again I repeat, so Mr Randazzlo thinks a Cessna pilot can fly his (complex) 737 without a First Officer?

Dream on, its a game and nothing else, certainly not a complex jetliner sim! Just a game! If was a true simulation, youd never get it off the tarmac!

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by charlie130
clarity

[FS++ 710]

14 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

So to clarify: there's currently no way to make MCE work fully with the latest update of the PMDG 737, and won't be until PMDG releases their new SDK?

I fully undurstand this was caused by PMDG and not MCE, just wanting to clarify what might happen going forward. 

We can make it happen and use Microsoft/Asobo SDK (more or less the same since FSX days) to read any switch state. This "complex" thing is a myth.

When an aircraft creates a custom variable, the sim knows about it, And the Asobo SDK will let you retrieve every single custom variable created by any add-on and the state it is in.

To cut a long story short, technically perfectly possible and could have you guys back to where things were before the update in a week, because we already used that approach back in 2011-2012 before the first PMDG SDK came out.

At FS++ we cannot spare money for a court case, hence the reluctance to do it straight away

If we developed the art of re-selling the same thing multiple times, perhaps we would have been in a position to claim compensation for what they did to us.

There is nothing more demoralising than putting a 5 or 6 months work into interfacing a new plane for the first time that has no SDK, only for you to hear the plane maker declare on his forum that you are breaching the terms and conditions of an overzealous EULA instigated by your nemesis.

Things have changed since. From now on we will seek arbitration from Microsoft or Asobo on technical matters.

If reading a switch state via the Asobo SDK is seen as a crime, then some people's heads need to be checked.

Create your own simulator process execuutable, then don't publish any SDK and I can guarantee you it would be impossible to move anything, nor need a EULA other than perhaps warn against hacking and disassemly (to bypass protection) which is understandable.

As things stand, the PMDG airplane is an "add-on". They don't own "flightsimulator.exe"

It's the work of hundreds of engineers over 3 decades, backed by the Microsoft financial might that make Photoshop stills and 3D Studio Maxx models and animations, as wel as gauges callbacks come to life.

The SDK sole advantage is that you can communicate with the plane, from an external app and without knowing anything about how the Asobo/Microsoft SDK works. Only the basics of Simconnect. And they give you source code to copy and paste.

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by FS++

[ayousry 32]

3 hours ago, FS++ said:

We can make it happen and use Microsoft/Asobo SDK (more or less the same since FSX days) to read any switch state. This "complex" thing is a myth.

When an aircraft creates a custom variable, the sim knows about it, And the Asobo SDK will let you retrieve every single custom variable created by any add-on and the state it is in.

To cut a long story short, technically perfectly possible and could have you guys back to where things were before the update in a week, because we already used that approach back in 2011-2012 before the first PMDG SDK came out.

At FS++ we cannot spare money for a court case, hence the reluctance to do it straight away

If we developed the art of re-selling the same thing multiple times, perhaps we would have been in a position to claim compensation for what they did to us.

There is nothing more demoralising than putting a 5 or 6 months work into interfacing a new plane for the first time that has no SDK, only for you to hear the plane maker declare on his forum that you are breaching the terms and conditions of an overzealous EULA instigated by your nemesis.

Things have changed since. From now on we will seek arbitration from Microsoft or Asobo on technical matters.

If reading a switch state via the Asobo SDK is seen as a crime, then some people's heads need to be checked.

Create your own simulator process execuutable, then don't publish any SDK and I can guarantee you it would be impossible to move anything, nor need a EULA other than perhaps warn against hacking and disassemly (to bypass protection) which is understandable.

As things stand, the PMDG airplane is an "add-on". They don't own "flightsimulator.exe"

It's the work of hundreds of engineers over 3 decades, backed by the Microsoft financial might that make Photoshop stills and 3D Studio Max models and animations come to life.

The SDK sole advantage is that you can communicate with the plane, from an external app and without knowing anything about how the Asobo/Microsoft SDK works. Only the basics of Simconnect. And they give you source code to copy and paste.

.

Just my 2 cents , am a RL airline pilot and almost 20 years simmer, MCE is a no brainer when it comes to simulating real world operations , and am sure this will stay the closest u can get other than having a shared cockpit with a real simmer(a shame asobo is withdrawing that) , not to mention the almost immediate support , am actually the one who suggested that a joystick binding is needed for disabling FO interaction specially when in VR and devs immediately went to work and 2 days later its implemented, all for free , didnt see that kind of support with any product in 20 years of addons and sims

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Edited June 27, 2022 by ayousry