...to put the plane in an ideal pitch attitude on final approach, as in how far out from landing?  As a graduate of the T&E flight school I never learned what's typical in the RW.

Thanks!

If you want to learn what airline pilots do....how they fly...why they do what they do.... here's a start. 

 

Ben

 

Edited July 12, 20223 yr by BFarney

No I actually don't want a PMDG 737 tutorial I'd like an answer to one very specific question, but thanks anyway.  That there have been some 48 views and no answers perhaps suggests I'm not alone in not knowing the answer to this question.

Edited July 12, 20223 yr by Noel

1 hour ago, Noel said:

to put the plane in an ideal pitch attitude on final approach

Do you mean flare?

1 hour ago, Luis Hernandez said:

Do you mean flare?

Actually, no.  I guess a better way to ask this is well before what we call flare typically commences what should our late final approach pitch be?   Nose slightly down, level, or up?   It's harder to do than just depend on that final pitch up to slow the aircraft for a softer landing but I know that was a good method to use w/ the Majestic Dash 8 to get solid landings:  you would assume the landing pitch and maintain it.

1 hour ago, Noel said:

what should our late final approach pitch be?   Nose slightly down, level, or up?

For Airliner ( narrow body ) a typical PITCH for final approach at -3° descent flight path should be around 4° to 5° depending landing flaps configuration.-

6 hours ago, Noel said:

Actually, no.  I guess a better way to ask this is well before what we call flare typically commences what should our late final approach pitch be?   Nose slightly down, level, or up?   It's harder to do than just depend on that final pitch up to slow the aircraft for a softer landing but I know that was a good method to use w/ the Majestic Dash 8 to get solid landings:  you would assume the landing pitch and maintain it.

Depends on:

Aircraft type (some are nose down like the RJ100 and Saab2000,  but most have a nose up attitude in landing config)

Approach speed additive due to winds

Flap setting (full flaps will always produce a shallower pitch)

9 hours ago, polosim said:

For Airliner ( narrow body ) a typical PITCH for final approach at -3° descent flight path should be around 4° to 5° depending landing flaps configuration.-

When does the plane typically get put into 4-5 degrees?  Are you describing the 4-5 degrees as the flare near touchdown, or is this assumed well before touchdown?

16 minutes ago, Noel said:

When does the plane typically get put into 4-5 degrees?

When you are in full configuration for landing , normally before reaching 1000' IMC o 500' VMC.

For an ILS landing many airlines have a "stabilized" criteria at 1000ft above airport elevation. This means you are in landing config, speed is at/or steady decreasing to determined final approach speed, and less than 1dot deviation on the needles. 

If we know that a 3 degree path means 300ft/NM, hence 1000ft above airport elevation occurs at roughly 3NM from the runway which is the absolute latest where you should be stabilized on an ILS CAT 1.

15 hours ago, Noel said:

...to put the plane in an ideal pitch attitude on final approach, as in how far out from landing?  As a graduate of the T&E flight school I never learned what's typical in the RW.

Thanks!

I'll try to answer what I think you are asking. So from the start, this is based on several factors such as the type of approach, aircraft type and if there is any speed restrictions. I will stay general in the answer to give an overall cover. Lets start with an ILS. Typically on an ILS, you want to start your final slow down to reach final configuration and approach speed by glide slope intercept. Now, some busy airports want you to keep 180kts till the outer marker for traffic flow. My all inclusive technique is to hold 180 until I start slowing for the GS intercept. I'm at 180 during the vector and along the LOC at approach flaps. Once the GS indicator starts to come down, I call for the gear. When the GS indicator is a dot above, I call for landing flaps and slow to approach speed(REF + 5). The approach pitch is going to be based on the percentage of Vstall the aircraft has for approach. It's just a reference and will change based on the glide path angle. You are targeting approach speed and glide path, the pitch will just be a reference. I like this technique because it keeps you fast enough to respect the 180, but also gives you time to slow to approach speed without the rush. Aircraft have a hard time going down and slowing down, so you want to do that while you are level. Now lets talk GPS/ non precision.

I treat GPS approaches similar to the ILS. Same speeds apply. The key here is to be fully configured and on speed by the FAF. Again, you want to slow down while you are still level. Sometimes, you may be descending approaching the FAF. In this case, you will adjust and try to be configured by the time the descent starts. You may have to get down a little earlier to shallow out if possible or you may have to slow while level early on and drag in😐. Either way, you don't want to be in the rush. Take KASE for example. In a G550 or GV, if I'm not configured and on approach speed by the FAF, I will never make it. The glide path is aggressive and I will never be able to get slow enough. Non precisions can be treated the same way. Normally, you will do these in a continuous descent format so ensure to slow down and be configured by the descent point. Now lets look at visuals.

Visuals will take a little more anticipation skills and experience with your aircraft's performance. You may be on the visual approach due to approaching the airport visually or you could be coming off a non precision or circling. The key here is to build a mental picture of the visual and convert it to an ILS so that you can figure out the visual descent point. Once you have it nailed, slow and be configured by that point. Depending on the aircraft, you may have to do some other things such as circling with a certain flap setting. A lot of aircraft these days circle with landing flaps. Keep in mind engine out requirements as well as they may drive a certain configuration to a certain point. Now in the Gulfstream there's this visual technique of 1,3,5 and 7. 7 miles out, flaps 10. 5 miles out, flaps 20. 3 miles out, drop the gear. 1 mile out, flaps landing. This technique keeps you from dragging in. You don't want to be way out there, fully configured/slow and burning gas. Some people will also build the visual approach in the FMS/FMC so that they have the visual indications on the PFD/MAP so that they can plan and configure based on those indicators. You can always go old school and have the ILS dialed up as well if its available. You can then have the GS indicator to plan on and assist with the approach. Keeps you out of trouble with getting too low. If doing a VFR pattern, I keep the 180 technique with approach flaps. Abeam the threshold on downwind, I call for the gear to aid in the slowing process. When the threshold is 45 degrees off my shoulder, I start my turn and call for landing flaps half way through the turn looking to be half way down. As I roll out on final, I am on speed and fully configured. The AFMs also have a good depiction of how the pattern should be flown.

Those are some things to think about as you decide when and where you want to be on speed and configured. Keep in mind that other things can throw off your planning. You may get slammed dunked by ATC where they keep you higher than you want. In that case you will be doing the infamous go down and slow down exercise. This is where knowing your aircraft becomes essential. The AFM will also give you some slow down rates in different configurations, though these are level. Having the knowledge/experience of your aircraft's performance will help you decide at what point you will be on speed. It could be at a half mile or never. It will definitely tell you early on if you need a 360, re vector or option to roll into the VFR pattern. At a half mile is pushing it for me. Some folks accept the higher speed with a long runway, but that's going outside of stabilized criteria in my opinion. You make it a habit and it will bite you when you really need to be on speed. You also have to consider what the weather/environment is doing to the aircraft. Are you already carrying extra speed due to gusts? There's a reason why a lot of people were over running the runway in biz aviation. Hopefully this gives you some insight. We don't target a certain pitch on approach, you just fly on speed and on glide path. If your typical pitch on approach on a specific path angel is 3 degrees, then its a reference of what you should be seeing on speed and on path.

Rick 

Well I got way more than asked for thanks Rick!  Thanks!

12 hours ago, polosim said:

For Airliner ( narrow body ) a typical PITCH for final approach at -3° descent flight path should be around 4° to 5° depending landing flaps configuration.-

I think this is where I was going.  For clarification:  let's say I'm 3 miles out from touchdown and the descent flight path -3°.  I think you're saying I should be putting the plane in a +4-5° pitch, maintaining that with speed per flap setting and so forth.   Then, at touchdown I would do a modest addtional up-pitch of say +2°.  Does that sound right?

11 minutes ago, Noel said:

Does that sound right?

Sounds like a plan. 🙂

 

14 hours ago, Noel said:

Actually, no.  I guess a better way to ask this is well before what we call flare typically commences what should our late final approach pitch be?   Nose slightly down, level, or up? 

Ahhh, now I understand. It all depends on the aircraft you fly. For Boeings, it's usually 2.5°. For the Airbus widebodies, should be between 3.5° and 4°. All in a 3° glideslope. The FCTM should have more specific information.

But I see everyone else has given better replies, so I'll stop here before I screw it up. Hope this helps.

20 minutes ago, Luis Hernandez said:

For Boeings, it's usually 2.5°. For the Airbus widebodies, should be between 3.5° and 4°. All in a 3° glideslope. The FCTM should have more specific information.

But I see everyone else has given better replies, so I'll stop here before I screw it up. Hope this helps.

Absolutely, you have a nice point here.

For B737 NG , In Final App 3° flight path,  pitch attitude  should be as these table shows: