Aggressive chess engines :(

[Fielder 3,643]

I  hate it when it buzzes that the move I'm thinking of is bad:(.

https://newstalkkzrg.com/2022/09/15/missouri-hosted-chess-tournament-accuses-player-of-cheating-via-marital-aid-device/

 

 

[Fielder 3,643]

Right after the match, Elon Musk tweeted a famous quote:

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit, genius hits a target no one can see". -Schopenhauer.

[n4gix 4,947]

Most likely of all, Marcus simply had a bad day. Either that, or he finally met someone who's genuinely a better player!

The real question though, does Marus believe he's been cheated?

[JonP01 104]

I agree. It is almost impossible to cheat in high level face to face tournaments these days. And for those not familiar with chess and the rating system, the rating difference between the two players involved does actually "permit" the lower ranked player to win - just much less frequently. And yes, the higher you get in rating, the less likely a lower rated player will win - much more likely is a whole swag of draws and an ocassional win by the higher ranked player. But still wins can and do happen, especially when as n4gix points out, the better player is having a bad day.

In any case, every player's rating declines with age and there really isn't any getting around it. Maybe Magnus has reached the point - just like all the Champions before him - where his strength is beginning to decline. No player stays at the top forever.

There is also an aspect of chess where certain players just have great difficulty beating a lower ranked player because of a "clash" of styles. Almost every player can recount games where they just have a "difficult" opponent yet that same opponent might be easily beaten by another player who in turn can be easily beaten by that original player.

Who would want to be the next chess superstar these days when all that happens is you will get accused of cheating?

 

[overspeed3 410]

If I remember, Bobby Fischer accused certain  Russian chess players of cheating way back in the early 70's.  

Ah, but then there were Russians involved in Olympics cheating scandals in later years...  

[martin-w 3,234]

15 hours ago, n4gix said:

Most likely of all, Marcus simply had a bad day. Either that, or he finally met someone who's genuinely a better player!

The real question though, does Marus believe he's been cheated?

 

Carlson is in contention for being the best player ever. Nieman was ranked much lower. 

Could have been a fluke win of course, but some believe his Elo jump is suspicious, he jumped from 2484 to 2700 an increase so fast that many don't believe its possible. He has suddenly outperformed his rating strength to an astonishing and some believe  suspicious degree. 

However  in my view you are innocent until proven guilty and thus far there is zero evidence of cheating. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,234]

12 hours ago, JonP01 said:

In any case, every player's rating declines with age and there really isn't any getting around it. Maybe Magnus has reached the point

I agree. It is almost impossible to cheat in high level face to face tournaments these days

 

In terms of age related decline, not that suddenly. 

In terms of "over the board cheating" I agree with you in that its not easy, although it has happened, mobile phones in toilets, miniature radio receivers and such things, but at the Sinquefield Cup they're scanned form head to toe and I believe their shoes checked too. So OTB cheating is indeed extremely unlikely. 

In my opinion its more likely (than OTB) that someone had leaked Carlson's prep. So Niemann knew what he was going to do and analyzed that exact line. He actually admitted that "by some miracle" as he put it, that he looked at  exactly game from some years ago where Carlson played the same line before.

Perhaps, pure speculation here, but maybe that was why Carlson couldn't make an official accusation of cheating, because it was a leak of his prep rather than cheating in the strictest definition of the word.

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,234]

The plot thickens.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by martin-w

[JonP01 104]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:47 AM, martin-w said:

 

In my opinion its more likely (than OTB) that someone had leaked Carlson's prep. So Niemann knew what he was going to do and analyzed that exact line. He actually admitted that "by some miracle" as he put it, that he looked at  exactly game from some years ago where Carlson played the same line before.

Perhaps, pure speculation here, but maybe that was why Carlson couldn't make an official accusation of cheating, because it was a leak of his prep rather than cheating in the strictest definition of the word

That actually sound quite plausible since at that level they are all such precise players that leaked prep might be the equivalent of a relative loss (or gain) of perhaps 150 points, meaning it would then just require a small inaccuracy later in the game and if capitalised then the weaker player will win. It would also explain the bizarre ongoing behaviour like disappearing after two moves...

[martin-w 3,234]

26 minutes ago, JonP01 said:

That actually sound quite plausible since at that level they are all such precise players that leaked prep might be the equivalent of a relative loss (or gain) of perhaps 150 points, meaning it would then just require a small inaccuracy later in the game and if capitalised then the weaker player will win. It would also explain the bizarre ongoing behaviour like disappearing after two moves...

 

Magnus has now released a statement Jon. Bold is mine. Looks like Carlson's lawyers have made sure he's not opening himself to being sued for defamation. Seems he is implying over the board cheating.

 

Quote

 

Dear Chess World,

At the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, I made the unprecedented professional decision to withdraw from the tournament after my round three game against Hans Niemann. A week later during the Champions Chess Tour, I resigned against Hans Niemann after playing only one move.

I know that my actions have frustrated many in the chess community. I’m frustrated. I want to play chess. I want to continue to play chess at the highest level in the best events.

I believe that cheating in chess is a big deal and an existential threat to the game. I also believe that chess organizers and all those who care about the sanctity of the game we love should seriously consider increasing security measures and methods of cheat detection for over the board chess. When Niemann was invited last minute to the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, I strongly considered withdrawing prior to the event. I ultimately chose to play.

I believe that Niemann has cheated more — and more recently — than he has publicly admitted. His over the board progress has been unusual, and throughout our game in the Sinquefield Cup I had the impression that he wasn’t tense or even fully concentrating on the game in critical positions, while outplaying me as black in a way I think only a handful of players can do. This game contributed to changing my perspective.

We must do something about cheating, and for my part going forward, I don’t want to play against people that have cheated repeatedly in the past, because I don’t know what they are capable of doing in the future.

There is more that I would like to say. Unfortunately, at this time I am limited in what I can say without explicit permission from Niemann to speak openly. So far I have only been able to speak with my actions, and those actions have stated clearly that I am not willing to play chess with Niemann. I hope that the truth on this matter comes out, whatever it may be.

Sincerely,
Magnus Carlsen – World Chess Champion

 

 

https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-statement-on-niemann

[JonP01 104]

Yep. Well he is not holding back now (lawyers have given him "sufficient" leash)! I have to admit that my opinion is more fluid than it might have been a couple of weeks ago. After Neimann's own cheating admissions from the past, my intuition tells me that anything that gives you an instant "high" in the past is a potential source of addiction very difficult to shake off in the future. I stopped playing competitive chess years ago after encountering a cheat in a correspondence game (which is the worst possible environment for cheating). Their playing strength suddenly seemed to increase by about 800 points after they fell for a combination that was probably around the equivalent high over the board club level (which was roughly my correspondence playing strength). Suddenly I felt like I was up against a Kasparov. And it was not much fun after that.

If Carlson has come out and said this in a public tweet he must have a very convincing case already.

[martin-w 3,234]

17 hours ago, JonP01 said:

If Carlson has come out and said this in a public tweet he must have a very convincing case already.

 

Seems so. He says he has more he could say if Nieman gives him explicit permission to speak freely.  

 

17 hours ago, JonP01 said:

Suddenly I felt like I was up against a Kasparov. And it was not much fun after that.

 

I don't get the mentality to be honest. I've encountered cheat's a few time's on chess.com. I usually get a message the following day that a recent opponent has used unfair measures. I don't get why they do it, if you cheat, you yourself know you have cheated and that your rating is sham. If its at the highest level and there's good money to be made I can understand why they would do it, but when there's no profit in it it just seems pretty dumb to me. 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by martin-w