So mSparks, what your default R22 veredict ?

[jcomm 6,096]

Tittle says it all 🙂

It looks & feels cool to me, but I really don't know how it compares to RL.

How do you find it, being default in XP12? 

Have you had the chance to fly one IRL or only R44 / R66 ?

OFC it should make a BIG difference if one uses the adequate hardware controllers, which is far from being my case - T.16000 and Saitek Combat Rudder Pro... plus the HOTAS from a broken X.52 Pro.

Some good years ago a fellow girl glider pilot, who was also a Portuguese Air Force heli pilot told me she found a lot of common between flying helis and gliders due to the mandatory use and "abuse" of rudder / anti-torque 🙂

P.S.: It just came to my mind that you're also a VR user, so...., maybe you're also an Aerofly FS 4 user?  If so, how do you compare the default R22 in AEFS4 to XP12's R22?

Edited October 25, 2022 by jcomm

[mSparks 2,135]

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

Have you had the chance to fly one IRL or only R44 / R66 ?

IRL I've only flow R44, R66 and gazelle in any meaningful way, but I am fairly familiar with the R22 (Instructor wont let me fly it because he says they are to dangerous)

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

How do you find it, being default in XP12? 

not spent much time in it before, so based on a quick cold and dark and a circuit:

really nice touch vibrating the HSI at low RPM.

Very happy they finally implemented a proper throttle governor

its a very simple cockpit so I would be amazed at this point if something was wrong with it. FPS performance is steller.

(EDIT:Reasonably sure the clutch switch behaviour is wrong... I doubt that should be different than the 44, also missing the mixture guard)

Actually prefer that cockpit layout with the ADF.

Main differences of the R22 to the R44 is the smaller engine, and smaller cockpit and less weight. I had no issues take off, hover, transition effect was good, autorotation behaviour seemed sensible, it seemed suitably more "twitchy" for the lower weight.

It did a very good job of the landing transition - perhaps even better than the current vskylabs R44 XP12 beta which has a tendency atm to over speed the rotor in a steep descent and is a bit to stable in yaw when you stop.

Reviewing a review:

"Ambiant sounds": Yes, go to the beach 🙂.

His performance is nothing like mine.... I was up in 200fps in 2D and rock solid in VR. As he says, older machine so screen capture, so likely that

He goes through the various important flight dynamics at the end of the video, pretty much agree with everything he said there.

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

Aerofly FS 4

Heh, hadn't even seen it tbh.

nerdy helisimmer did a review of that to, so

XP12s new lighting really shines through there imho.

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

OFC it should make a BIG difference if one uses the adequate hardware controllers

pedals collective throttle are a must for the helicopters imho, cyclic you can actually get away with a joystick (especially as many have a joystick as their main input), but they dont capture the behaviour of the funky Robinson cyclic. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by mSparks

[Murmur 3,978]

I found helicopters (in this case the R22) are much easier to fly in XP using these 2 settings:

.) a very wide field of view (110-120 degrees), which allows much better peripheral vision and detecting helicopter motion much more quickly, probably compensating in part for the lack of "seatpant". AFAIK, VR already has approximately that FOV, and motion detection in VR I assume is much better than on a monitor anyway because you can turn your head as in RL.

.) using either max non-linear settings for controls or, even better, custom linear response curves with halved sensitivity (50% max control deflection). This is to compensate for the sensitivity difference between a 6'' joystick and a much longer and precise cyclic control. Of course halving the sensitivity limits max control authority, but I haven't found it to be a problem in normal flight.

These two things for me literally make a night and day difference in flying helis, so much so that without using them, the helicopter flight model feels a lot less realistic!

[ryanbatc 13,136]

I've found I absolutely require use of Track IR or VR to use helis in XP.  Especially near the ground.

[mSparks 2,135]

9 hours ago, ryanbatc said:

Track IR or VR

VR is a whole different ballpark, I think I've said that before... a few times...

My XPlane VR time currently stands at an absolutely ridiculous.

Glad I never got round to getting TrackIR working or I might not have made the effort to become a VR "early adopter".

Seems "Only" 550 hours so far this year

But that is more a factor of XP12 ruining my XP11 experience when it was still far from ready for daily use....

That "VR has matured" thread was the NDA'd version of "OMFG I just tried VR in XP12 and everyone needs to see this".

[blingthinger 676]

On 10/25/2022 at 8:12 AM, Murmur said:

.) using either max non-linear settings for controls or, even better, custom linear response curves with halved sensitivity (50% max control deflection). This is to compensate for the sensitivity difference between a 6'' joystick and a much longer and precise cyclic control. Of course halving the sensitivity limits max control authority, but I haven't found it to be a problem in normal flight.

I've tried these things as well as increased the number of flight models per frame to 5 and the R22 is still extremely unstable. It leaps off the ground with little more than 10% collective. As soon as even just part of the skid is off the ground, there's an immediate lateral movement that opposite stick doesn't arrest. The tail rotor is also extremely powerful. Can't take the rudder control down to 50% max control either, without losing a fair bit of opposite-torque rudder control. I've also set a wide (10%) null band on all joystick axes to eliminate any drift when controls are centered.

Conversely, the Sikorsky is much more stable. Granted it's also a much bigger machine, but is the R22 really that twitchy in real life? If so, does one therefore absolutely need the hardware Austin reviewed here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cvO_euPJn0

 

[BobFS88 703]

On 10/26/2022 at 3:14 AM, mSparks said:

My XPlane VR time currently stands at an absolutely ridiculous.

So far I have 6 flight, 18 hours in this week and 1 last week all in VR. The only way to fly. 😂

[Murmur 3,978]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

I've tried these things as well as increased the number of flight models per frame to 5 and the R22 is still extremely unstable. It leaps off the ground with little more than 10% collective. As soon as even just part of the skid is off the ground, there's an immediate lateral movement that opposite stick doesn't arrest. The tail rotor is also extremely powerful. Can't take the rudder control down to 50% max control either, without losing a fair bit of opposite-torque rudder control. I've also set a wide (10%) null band on all joystick axes to eliminate any drift when controls are centered.

Conversely, the Sikorsky is much more stable. Granted it's also a much bigger machine, but is the R22 really that twitchy in real life? If so, does one therefore absolutely need the hardware Austin reviewed here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cvO_euPJn0

 

I just tried and, at default weight, it requires around 30-35% collective to hover just above ground (in X-Plane, throttle axis is reversed for helicopters, so max throttle on joystick = min collective in sim).

I would advice setting all null-zones to zero for helicopters, since they require continuous small corrections with the controls, and a null-zone would make that harder.

I have a FFB joystick, so I can unplug the FFB and deactivate the return-to-center force, which makes it easier to use and more like a real helicopter.

I shot a quick video doing a short hop around the airport with the R22:

 

[Humpty 752]

24 minutes ago, Murmur said:

I just tried and, at default weight, it requires around 30-35% collective to hover just above ground (in X-Plane, throttle axis is reversed for helicopters, so max throttle on joystick = min collective in sim).

I would advice setting all null-zones to zero for helicopters, since they require continuous small corrections with the controls, and a null-zone would make that harder.

I have a FFB joystick, so I can unplug the FFB and deactivate the return-to-center force, which makes it easier to use and more like a real helicopter.

I shot a quick video doing a short hop around the airport with the R22:

 

Ah , i have a self made cyclic 🙂  it's kinda perfect for helis.

[blingthinger 676]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

I just tried and, at default weight, it requires around 30-35% collective to hover just above ground (in X-Plane, throttle axis is reversed for helicopters, so max throttle on joystick = min collective in sim).

I would advice setting all null-zones to zero for helicopters, since they require continuous small corrections with the controls, and a null-zone would make that harder.

I have a FFB joystick, so I can unplug the FFB and deactivate the return-to-center force, which makes it easier to use and more like a real helicopter.

I shot a quick video doing a short hop around the airport with the R22:

 

I have tried no null zones too. Might be just needing more practice. And yes, I learned very quickly that the throttle axis is inverted!

Do you use rudder pedals? I'm temporarily having to use the twist grip on the joystick for rudder control.

[Murmur 3,978]

22 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Do you use rudder pedals? I'm temporarily having to use the twist grip on the joystick for rudder control.

I also use twist grip for convenience reasons (although I have rudder pedals), but yes pedals would be more realistic.

[mSparks 2,135]

4 hours ago, blingthinger said:

the R22 is still extremely unstable.

There's a reason my flight instructor doesn't let me fly them... and that isn't the worst of it (autorotation properties are pretty nasty)

2 hours ago, Murmur said:

I just tried and, at default weight, it requires around 30-35% collective to hover just above ground (in X-Plane, throttle axis is reversed for helicopters, so max throttle on joystick = min collective in sim).

I would advice setting all null-zones to zero for helicopters, since they require continuous small corrections with the controls, and a null-zone would make that harder.

I have a FFB joystick, so I can unplug the FFB and deactivate the return-to-center force, which makes it easier to use and more like a real helicopter.

I shot a quick video doing a short hop around the airport with the R22:

 

From performance section of https://robinsonheli.com/r22-pilots-operating-handbook/

 

[Murmur 3,978]

Eheh, yes I know I should avoid the dead man's curve.

[blingthinger 676]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

I also use twist grip for convenience reasons (although I have rudder pedals), but yes pedals would be more realistic.

I was more worried about stability. You mention turning off force feedback...I've still got springs, which is probably part the problem. That and lack of practice.

Removing the null zones did indeed help some. Turns out it's not as big of a deal to have an axis offset a bit (because it's old) if you'll be crossing back over anyways in the constant barrage of control inputs. Just have to get used to the spring force offset.

 

59 minutes ago, mSparks said:

There's a reason my flight instructor doesn't let me fly them... and that isn't the worst of it (autorotation properties are pretty nasty)

Good to know I'm not totally crazy on this one. It's very very fickle.

Is it really possible to yaw the chopper while still on the ground w/ no collective input, as in the sim? I would have thought the friction between skids and ground would be enough to keep it stationary until it gets some gas.

[mSparks 2,135]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

Is it really possible to yaw the chopper while still on the ground w/ no collective input, as in the sim?

No it isn't.

What I think is happening there is doesn't doesn't have a (a good enough?) differential between "skidding" friction and "not skidding" friction, so the friction is set such that you can skid landing

But that isn't high enough to stop you spinning it on a runway

(mind you, I've never dumped full left pedal on a runway, so maybe you can.....)

Edited October 29, 2022 by mSparks