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Noel

How much 'stuttering' do you experience in MSFS?

In a typical 1-2 hour flight how many instances of stuttering can you detect?  

112 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. In a typical 1-2 hour flight how many instances of stuttering can you detect?

    • 0-3
      72
    • 4-6
      18
    • 7-10
      7
    • Greater than 10
      15
  2. 2. Do you lock frames?

    • Yes, thru RTSS
      6
    • Yes, thru NCP
      11
    • Yes, thru in-sim Vsync
      61
    • Yes, thru Gsync
      5
    • Yes, thru Freesync
      0
    • No, I don't lock frames
      29
  3. 3. What display resolution?

    • 1080p
      24
    • 1440p
      53
    • 4K
      29
    • Not listed here
      6

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  • Poll closed on 10/31/2022 at 08:35 PM

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1 minute ago, Noel said:

  What plane did you fly in? 

FBW A32nx, I know, a challenging bird for frames...


Tapani Österberg

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It's remarkable how well the sim performs.  People with much stronger hardware than you still report similar issues.

Cheers

  • Like 1

Noel

System:  7800x3D, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, Noctua NH-U12A, MSI Pro 650-P WiFi, G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000, WD NVMe 2Tb x 1, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 1, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM1000W PSU, Win11 Home, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Case, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frame Time Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320nx, WT 787X

 

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I've been thinking about frame time variability and perceived stuttering. Not sure if the correlation is that strong. Just did a 5 min benchmark: Fenix holding pattern 12000ft northwest of CYDC Princeton. SU11, DX12, TAA (frame generation off), TLOD150, G-Sync (TV refresh rate 120Hz, RTSS fps locked to 117).

I didn't notice any stutters at all during the test. There is a significant frame time variability though. 

u8rMlxp.jpg

fFz4Wgu.jpg

Edited by Cpt_Piett

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“Intensify the forward batteries. I don’t want anything to get through”

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Piett said:

I've been thinking about frame time variability and perceived stuttering. Not sure if the correlation is that strong.

I've never thought there was much correlation between FTV and stuttering, per se...but we haven't really defined 'stuttering'.  What I am referring to for essentially zero FTV is a sense of fluidity that makes animation look almost analogue, perfect.  I dare say anyone looking at it would assume it's really 100% smooth/flluid.  Yes, nearfield objects while moving fast will make the low frame rate come into play, but that goes away fairly quickly as you move up and away from the runway during TO.  And GPU/CPU overload will bring out what I call 'stutters' every time.  High FTV may ultimately be really tiny microstutters that are hard to describe other than it's not quite as fluid.  It's this:

_____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____  ULTRA-SMOOTH at 10FPS (pretend it's 60!)

____ ______ ____ ____ ______ ___ ___ _______ _____ ________  NOT ULTRA SMOOTH at 10FPS (pretend it's 60!)

Something tells me our visual system is able to discern the difference.  You will not be able to put a finger on it as it's too subtle.  Only a double-blind test would really prove it though.  A very strong 2nd choice for me is NVCP's Adaptive Vsync at 1/2 refresh (for me, since my monitor only does 60Hz or 30Hz).  It seems like Gsync may be the antithesis of ultra low FTV, but I don't know that to be the case yet. 


Noel

System:  7800x3D, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, Noctua NH-U12A, MSI Pro 650-P WiFi, G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000, WD NVMe 2Tb x 1, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 1, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM1000W PSU, Win11 Home, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Case, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frame Time Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320nx, WT 787X

 

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On 11/5/2022 at 1:18 PM, Noel said:

The smoothest animation is RTSS Framerate Limit at 30 w/ Front Edge Sync and with your monitor at 60hz.  It has remarkably low variability in frametime I am not able to try other configurations of frame rate nor monitor vertical refresh rate.

  • Turn off Vsync in MSFS, and in NVCP as well
  • DO NOT use scanline sync in RTSS
  • DO set framerate to 30 on the front page of RTSS
  • Setup, Enable framerate limiter
    • Set to Front Edge Sync
  • The method also lowers load on the main thread in MSFS
  • As mentioned above this method also entails a migrating 'tear line' which is visible as a linear distortion.  Because it migrates vertically with each pan you very often will not notice it because your own vision is aimed away from where it is at that moment. 

The next best smoothest animation but without the tear line is NVCP's Adapative Vsync at 1/2 refresh rate (set screen to 60hz)

  • Use it exclusively, i.e. turn of Vsync in-sim and  in RTSS's framerate limiter
  • This method increases load on the main thread and has modest variability in frametime

Other methods have not been included because they caused obvious stutters at some level over and above these two methods both of which rarely produce any visible stutter.  This is with Process Lasso optimized as well, see above post.

 

Hey Noel,

Not sure if I’m missing something but how do you set up the frame limiter with front edge sync? I don’t see anything in RTSS relating to front edge sync.


 

Richard

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27 minutes ago, Noel said:

I've never thought there was much correlation between FTV and stuttering, per se...but we haven't really defined 'stuttering'

It’s a bit of a tricky phenomenon to discuss… elusive in a way. There’s the “hard stutters” or pauses which are very noticeable. I get one just before touchdown at inibuild’s EGLL 27L every time. I’ve always thought the cause was related to scenery loading. 

Then there’s the stutters due to fps differences. E.g. fps suddenly dropping a lot during final approach into a major hub. 

Then there’s… microstutters I guess we could call them, due to frametime inconsistencies. I don’t think I notice these as much. I haven’t thought about the phenomenon until Travelrunner, then you, brought it up.

Edited by Cpt_Piett

i9-12900KF @ 5.1GHz | MSI Trio Gaming X RTX4090 | MSI MPG Z690 Carbon EK X | G.Skill Trident Z5 32GB DDR5 | WD Black SN850 2TB SSD | Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB SSD | 2x Samsung 960 EVO 500GB SSDs | Hela 850R Platinum PCIe 5.0 w/ 12VHPWR cable | Corsair RM750X | LG 77" OLED 3840x2160 | Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog | MFG Crosswind pedals | Thrustmaster TCA Captain Pack X Airbus Edition

“Intensify the forward batteries. I don’t want anything to get through”

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36 minutes ago, RJC68 said:

Hey Noel,

Not sure if I’m missing something but how do you set up the frame limiter with front edge sync? I don’t see anything in RTSS relating to front edge sync.

  1. Set your screen refresh to 60hz (for this test).
  2. On the home screen of RTSS, enter a framerate limit of 30.  Ignore scanline entry
  3. Hit the blue Setup button, then scroll down and choose Framerate Limiter I think it's listed as.  To the right of that there is another dropdown menu which defaults to Async.  Choose Front Edge Sync with that.
  4. Make sure all other frame rate limiters and other vsyncs are off.

Noel

System:  7800x3D, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, Noctua NH-U12A, MSI Pro 650-P WiFi, G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000, WD NVMe 2Tb x 1, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 1, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM1000W PSU, Win11 Home, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Case, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frame Time Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320nx, WT 787X

 

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23 minutes ago, Noel said:
  1. Set your screen refresh to 60hz (for this test).
  2. On the home screen of RTSS, enter a framerate limit of 30.  Ignore scanline entry
  3. Hit the blue Setup button, then scroll down and choose Framerate Limiter I think it's listed as.  To the right of that there is another dropdown menu which defaults to Async.  Choose Front Edge Sync with that.
  4. Make sure all other frame rate limiters and other vsyncs are off.

Thanks Noel,

I’ll give that a try. 

Edited by RJC68

 

Richard

i7-12700K | Noctua NH-D15S Black Version | MSI Pro Z690 - A | 32 GB DDR4 3600 | Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 | 1TB WD Blue NMVe (MSFS 2020) | 500 GB WD Black Gen 4 NVMe | 4TB WD Black Conventional | Fractal Design Torrent Case | Seasonic 1000W Gold Plus PSU | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Honeycomb Throttle | Airbus Side Stick | Virpil Rudder Pedals | Sony X90K 55 Inch TV |

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1 hour ago, Noel said:
  1. Set your screen refresh to 60hz (for this test).
  2. On the home screen of RTSS, enter a framerate limit of 30.  Ignore scanline entry
  3. Hit the blue Setup button, then scroll down and choose Framerate Limiter I think it's listed as.  To the right of that there is another dropdown menu which defaults to Async.  Choose Front Edge Sync with that.
  4. Make sure all other frame rate limiters and other vsyncs are off.

I tried this exactly as you said and there was a big tear right through the middle of the screen and panning was a juddery mess. Not sure if I missed something. This is on a 4K 60Hz Samsung TV


 

Richard

i7-12700K | Noctua NH-D15S Black Version | MSI Pro Z690 - A | 32 GB DDR4 3600 | Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 | 1TB WD Blue NMVe (MSFS 2020) | 500 GB WD Black Gen 4 NVMe | 4TB WD Black Conventional | Fractal Design Torrent Case | Seasonic 1000W Gold Plus PSU | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Honeycomb Throttle | Airbus Side Stick | Virpil Rudder Pedals | Sony X90K 55 Inch TV |

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10 hours ago, RJC68 said:

I tried this exactly as you said and there was a big tear right through the middle of the screen and panning was a juddery mess. Not sure if I missed something. This is on a 4K 60Hz Samsung TV

I explained all of this**** Rich, the 'tear line' which migrates.  I hardly notice it at all, but I have a 34" screen and perhaps on a bigger screen it's more obvious.  But panning is completely w/o tearing or juddering it's smooth and clear.  I use NV Low Latency at either Ultra or ON and this may have fixed any panning issues.  I have terrain precaching on Ultra as well which fixes panning in any mode for me. 

12 hours ago, RJC68 said:

****as mentioned above this method also entails a migrating 'tear line' which is visible as a linear distortion.  Because it migrates vertically with each pan you very often will not notice it because your own vision is aimed away from where it is at that moment. 

 


Noel

System:  7800x3D, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, Noctua NH-U12A, MSI Pro 650-P WiFi, G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000, WD NVMe 2Tb x 1, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 1, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM1000W PSU, Win11 Home, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Case, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frame Time Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320nx, WT 787X

 

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48 minutes ago, Noel said:

I explained all of this**** Rich, the 'tear line' which migrates.  I hardly notice it at all, but I have a 34" screen and perhaps on a bigger screen it's more obvious.  But panning is completely w/o tearing or juddering it's smooth and clear.  I use NV Low Latency at either Ultra or ON and this may have fixed any panning issues.  I have terrain precaching on Ultra as well which fixes panning in any mode for me. 

 

Sorry I didn't explain myself very well,

The tear line I was seeing was running left to right and not vertically as you mentioned (The normal vsync tear). I was curious to try what you found but the results I had were just the same as setting the FPS to 30 on a 60Hz display, when panning left to right it was not smooth at all. Maybe your monitor handles motion better than a 4K TV. For me the front edge sync didn't seem to do anything.

I have other options for getting smooth consistent frame times which work in my case, always in the pursuit of something better lol


 

Richard

i7-12700K | Noctua NH-D15S Black Version | MSI Pro Z690 - A | 32 GB DDR4 3600 | Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090 | 1TB WD Blue NMVe (MSFS 2020) | 500 GB WD Black Gen 4 NVMe | 4TB WD Black Conventional | Fractal Design Torrent Case | Seasonic 1000W Gold Plus PSU | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Honeycomb Throttle | Airbus Side Stick | Virpil Rudder Pedals | Sony X90K 55 Inch TV |

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On 11/8/2022 at 8:01 AM, RJC68 said:

Sorry I didn't explain myself very well,

The tear line I was seeing was running left to right and not vertically as you mentioned (The normal vsync tear). I was curious to try what you found but the results I had were just the same as setting the FPS to 30 on a 60Hz display, when panning left to right it was not smooth at all. Maybe your monitor handles motion better than a 4K TV. For me the front edge sync didn't seem to do anything.

I have other options for getting smooth consistent frame times which work in my case, always in the pursuit of something better lol

Actually what I was saying was that the line, the horizontal line, migrates vertically.

That's unfortunate I'm sorry you didn't have success witnessing this.  From this end it's always reproducible.  I just landed at KATL in the PMDG 738 w/ the enhanced nightlighting and captured the entire 1h flight from KMSY from cold and dark to shutdown.  At lower frame rate the more important ultra low frametime variance becomes in delivering smooth flight.  I remained stunned at the quality of animation it's in a word:  perfect.  Of course at 30fps close in objects like taxiway lights or signs during taxi will travel laterally enough such that it becomes possible to discern frames as kind of a blurring, but it's really modest and rapidly diminishes into perfect fluid clarity as you look farther out and fly higher up.

Because the tear line is what it is I have a new screen coming that will closely parallel this from Cpt_Piett's frametime variance analysis using hardware Gsync and it looks to be close enough to give it a try.  Next Monday I should be able to see for myself!

Landing at KATL.  Coming down from altitude the night sky was begging for some...SHOOTING STARS!  Where are they?!spacer.png

This is captured from cold and dark at KMSY to shutdown at KATL:  the ultra low FTV does correlate with perception of fluid, 100% hesitation-free motion:  99.59% of all frames had less than 2ms of variance.  If the tear line could be removed in this software solution it would be impossible to beat.  The few stutters were just too much for my hardware in that plane but it was really very minimal anyway.spacer.png

Edited by Noel
  • Like 1

Noel

System:  7800x3D, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, Noctua NH-U12A, MSI Pro 650-P WiFi, G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000, WD NVMe 2Tb x 1, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 1, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM1000W PSU, Win11 Home, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Case, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frame Time Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320nx, WT 787X

 

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It is a difficult topic. For instance. I can perceive the 50HZ flickering of TL light, or back in the days, what was it called, interlaced monitors? but when I get more than 30 fps solid in the sim, it is fluent. Also, I dont know if it is mentioned before, but say a FPS monitoring tool is sampling at 1 second, then the total fps in that second could be say 45 fps, but it could be that within that second two images pause longer than 1/45 sec, which our brain can perceive, while the other remaining intervals within that second have higher than 45 fps.

Also : the amount of movement of an object will count I suppose. If fps is good and solid say 45 fps constant, but the distance between the first image of an object and the second image of that object is very big, because of high speed flying or turning, even every 1/45 sec, I suppose our brain also perceives some kind of non-fluid imaging or vagueness or something.

Edited by Rene_Feijen

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5 hours ago, Noel said:

99.59% of all frames had less than 2ms of variance.

Wow, congratulations 🙂 I think you've reached the point where FTV is so low that it's completely imperceptible. There could still be stutters though, of different origin. It's hard to eliminate these completely. E.g. I get some stutters that I think are related to scenery loading - it's like the sim pauses very briefly. These occur more frequently with heavy scenery. 

I've been using unlocked fps and G-Sync for many months now. Before that I locked fps to 30. So when I did a test flight recently with fps locked to 30, the movement (especially panning) didn't seem as fluid. Not sure if it's possible to quantify this easily. But I think it's what Ian has mentioned with G-Sync - it has to be experienced. Especially when panning quickly with the camera or flying fast and low - I feel the motion is more fluid with G-Sync and fps unlocked. Provided fps can stay relatively high - at least 50-60. 


i9-12900KF @ 5.1GHz | MSI Trio Gaming X RTX4090 | MSI MPG Z690 Carbon EK X | G.Skill Trident Z5 32GB DDR5 | WD Black SN850 2TB SSD | Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB SSD | 2x Samsung 960 EVO 500GB SSDs | Hela 850R Platinum PCIe 5.0 w/ 12VHPWR cable | Corsair RM750X | LG 77" OLED 3840x2160 | Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog | MFG Crosswind pedals | Thrustmaster TCA Captain Pack X Airbus Edition

“Intensify the forward batteries. I don’t want anything to get through”

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4 hours ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Wow, congratulations 🙂 I think you've reached the point where FTV is so low that it's completely imperceptible. There could still be stutters though, of different origin. It's hard to eliminate these completely. E.g. I get some stutters that I think are related to scenery loading - it's like the sim pauses very briefly. These occur more frequently with heavy scenery. 

I've been using unlocked fps and G-Sync for many months now. Before that I locked fps to 30. So when I did a test flight recently with fps locked to 30, the movement (especially panning) didn't seem as fluid. Not sure if it's possible to quantify this easily. But I think it's what Ian has mentioned with G-Sync - it has to be experienced. Especially when panning quickly with the camera or flying fast and low - I feel the motion is more fluid with G-Sync and fps unlocked. Provided fps can stay relatively high - at least 50-60. 

It it weren't for the tear line there isn't a lot of justification for the new screen I just ordered to be honest.  The HDR might be nice as well.  And my Dell is getting slightly long in the tooth anyway.  And of course the Gsync will support improvements in thruput going forward (ie better hardware). You have to appreciate I've had very decent smoothness prior to things coming undone a few months ago and this is true in both P3D before and in MSFS since launch as this has always been very important to me.  But this near zero FTV truly in its own class.  My guess is few have experienced this (this, meaning a software solution to ultra low FTV) because for starters not a lot would probably put up with the tear line long, perhaps not long enough to notice what else was happening.  I did the same analysis with the other forms of frame lock and vsync and they are not the same nor do they "feel" the same.  Panning is phenomenally smooth as well.  I wish I could video capture this w/o the fact it will interfere with the smoothness as the capture steals enough resources.  

If your capture was valid which of course I assumed it was which was why I just spent $900+, then it's ultimately the very low FTV that is playing the biggest role in creating this sense of smooth motion thru Gsync.  Recall your capture demonstrated very low FTV, not quite as low as what I'm seeing but certainly in the ballpark.  So the common denominator is the low FTV--NOT the frame rate per se.  However, as frame rate increases the role FTV plays goes down, at least this *should* be the case.  IOW, by the time you're at very high frame rates it becomes harder to perceive less than sterling FTV.   What's not intuitive is that this same sense of smoothness IS present even at 30FPS using this specific sync method.  And is compatible with the idea as low as 30FPS thru Gsync delivers very smooth perception as well.  At least this is how I'm seeing it now.

Very soon, Monday, I will be able to tell quickly just how well this theory holds up!


Noel

System:  7800x3D, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, Noctua NH-U12A, MSI Pro 650-P WiFi, G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000, WD NVMe 2Tb x 1, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 1, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM1000W PSU, Win11 Home, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Case, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frame Time Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320nx, WT 787X

 

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