Gliders, what do you think?

[dean01c 21]

Not on my pc at moment but if memory serves me right there is a button on each corner of the map. Believe the volume is the top left. 

[odourboy 1,292]

13 hours ago, aniiran said:

The DG1001 has variometer sound in the tutorial but outside of the tutorials no variometer sound.  DG-8 is fine.  Anyone else witnessed this? 

Not here. Started both on the tarmac and varios were fine. Never touched the volume controls.

[lwt1971 7,517]

From IRL gliding folks on the official forums... given these are feedback threads that MS/Asobo are soliciting folks to chime in on, very much seems like they'll keep improving core gliding support in future SUs rather than this being a one-and-done.

Re: the LS8, https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/official-discussion-dg-aviation-ls8-18/554989/103

I have flown the LS8-18 for over 100h and am pleasantly surprised how good it is. Good job! Nevertheless there is always room for improvement, so here are my comments:

• Airbrakes slightly too ineffective. Higher sinkrates can be obtained
• Ground effect slightly too strong. IRL it settles faster
• Missing sound for opening airbrakes (Pulling brakes out of the lock position makes a noise)
• Spins are too hard to recover. The real glider recovers faster
• Picks up speed and rotates too fast in the winch launch
• Please do not automatically load gliders with waterballast each flight. It should be optional, but not standard in my opinion.
• Yaw strings look a bit weird. Usually the entire string moves with the flow (like a pendulum). But this is just nitpicking.
• Variometer seems to just be a vertical speed indicator. It should not respond as much to pull ups. Variometers work on total energy rather than only potential energy.
• Aural cueing for thermals is far too loud. This should be very subtle and sometimes not even there at all.
• Speaking of audio cues: The LS8 however does have a specific cue at high angles of attack in steep turns. The airflow at the root detaches and gives some turbulent noise. But this is not very important to include in my opinion.
   

Re: the DG-1001, https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/official-discussion-dg-aviation-dg-1001e-neo/555145/41

Alright, first of all, it is wonderful, that we now have the first implementation of gliding into the sim at all. Great job and thank you.

For future improvement here my first observations going from LOWI to LOIJ, towing out of LOWI along the Inntal northridge, crossing at LOKI to Wilder Kaiser and than to LOIJ plus testing the engine along the way for about 10min.

Handling - Improvements:

• Adverse Yaw too weak (it´s a big wing)
• String not realistic in response to rudder
• Spoiler seems not effective enough, at full extension it just adds about -1m/s of sink (but I have to admit, I have flown the DG1000 the last time about 15 years ago). Plus the nose down attitude change when deploying the spoilers along with the speed increase seem excessive.

Tug - Improvements:

• The tug flies about 150km/h and climbs with the heavy DG1000 about 4m/s. This is totally unrealistic for a Cessna 172. Tug climb speed should be around 120 to 130 approximately and in clean air I would expect about 2m/s climb give or take.

<more in their post>

Edited November 14, 2022 by lwt1971

[Japo32 52]

more than the planes how they behave, I would like to hear more about how the airflow is represented, because more deep airplanes can be developed by community or 3rd parties.

I would like to know for example:

1. Thermals generate and die?

2. Do they are carried by wind, we have to climb in spirals with the wind?

3. Are they the same strong from core to border? They do have negative drop airflow out of the cone?

4. Would it be possible to represent real thermal maps with downloaded thermal data IRL? with maps like this one: Thermal Information Map (thermalmap.info)

5. High altitude wave soaring is supported?

[lwt1971 7,517]

8 minutes ago, Japo32 said:

more than the planes how they behave, I would like to hear more about how the airflow is represented, because more deep airplanes can be developed by community or 3rd parties.

I would like to know for example:

1. Thermals generate and die?

2. Do they are carried by wind, we have to climb in spirals with the wind?

3. Are they the same strong from core to border? They do have negative drop airflow out of the cone?

4. Would it be possible to represent real thermal maps with downloaded thermal data IRL? with maps like this one: Thermal Information Map (thermalmap.info)

5. High altitude wave soaring is supported?

Good questions, hopefully they delve into these topics on next Q&A and/or put the info out elsewhere... so far most of the info related to the new atmospheric airflow simulation is captured in this thread on the official forums: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/testing-the-new-airflow-simulation/549454
 

Edited November 14, 2022 by lwt1971

[Tuskin38 6,709]

Oh I finally found where you can change the launch method, left side after selecting the glider, it replaces the failures button.

[aniiran 435]

5 hours ago, dean01c said:

Not on my pc at moment but if memory serves me right there is a button on each corner of the map. Believe the volume is the top left. 

yep top left, thank you very much.

[Waldo Pepper 1,953]

https://flightsim.to/file/12465/lokl-lienz-nikolsdorf-airport-austria

[FBW737 519]

I'd certainly agree with everything in arneh's  and Jcomm's. I do find the Ground run quite compelling in that initially the ailerons have no authority and a drop wing will come up with a little opposite rudder. I did manage to get the LS8 in the air before the tug but the ground is definitely stick. The tow I do find quite realistic. Hopefully, the got Friends Discus and the Touching clouds DG808 will get updated so as to go in the Glider category in the Sim. I installed Condor for the first time in years to make a comparison. Flying into a thermal and centring in Condor is more realistic a very basic way regarding vario behaviour and centring technique. It typical to get a kind of distinctive wobble in the vario between lift and sink just as you enter a thermal then the lift often accompanied by a lifter wing unless you flew fight into the centre of the thermal. I'd instinctively bank right into the lifted wing. If the lift increases after the bank I probably turned in to soon. If it stayed the say I may have nailed it. To soon and I might expect that after a 180 the lift would drop and be followed by sink. Keep the turn going and as the lift comes back up to strength level out a bit flying slightly past where you initially turned but not so far that the lift drops off and that should bring you more concentric with the thermal. Rinse and repeat. That's basically the technique. It pretty simple to do and works as expected in Condor. But its a bit to simple. Certainly easier than in real life. Not so simple in MSFS. In MSFS its just about as hard as in real life. But I'm sure as is as it should be. Sometimes this techniques seems to work but then it doesn't. In other words after circling a couple of time you might get the impression that there is a nominally cylindrical shape piece of lift there but then perhaps it get a bit weird. I.e. expectations based on experience are not me. Typically thermals die at the cloud base. Sometimes they go up the side of the cloud a bit. Sometimes you can climb into the cloud a bit. (not recommended). On a good soaring day you don't have to work to hard to stay in the air. but you certainly cant just fly in a straight line and not attend to maintaining your altitude thermals to regain the altitude you lost in straight flight. Unless you are flying under a cloud street or along a ridge. I seems to me that thermaling in MSFS is about as difficult as it is in real life but you don't really need to since if you just fly around in the right conditions you'll bump in enough lift to stay airbourne much longer than you would in real life. IRL from a 2000' AGL tow you'll be on the ground in 10 mins unless you find a thermal. So there is also the seat of the pant's which cannot be simulated. I keep going back on forward on what I think of it. It'll take some experience with it flying in places I've really flow to really draw any conclusions for me. And I thing means it get the thumbs up and if Asobo keep improving on it I can see it being awesome.

[jcomm 6,058]

@FBW737, very good observations !

I believe that the thermal topology / logic in MFS is not correct because as you center in a thermal, with or without wind, you shoud be able, using the correct turn radius ( bank ) keep centred there until it fades or you reach the cloud base and don't want to get in.

IRL I sometimes enter the cloud in a glider properly equipped ( although I shouldn't ! because I fly VFR !!! ) ut you get good lift in some instances...

With wind the thermals can have quite a complex structure.

Coondor isn't that easy to thermal if you set the thermals to week / straight in the weather menu, or if you try blue thermals. Other then that it provides a very good experience. Silent Wings in some aspects does it even better, specially as you approach the thermal nd experience the outflow.

Then, the MFS aerodynamics prevent you from using the proper techiniques to stay in the thermal, and that rather weird yaw string doen't help either... It's easier / different to control the gliders in MFS too becasue there's practically no adverse yaw or "overnbanking":

https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/maneuver.html#sec-turns

https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/roll.html#sec-overbanking

I did like the sideslips though 🙂

[Soul Rebel 39]

Glider pilots in this post, what book do you recommend to start learning about gliding?.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Soul Rebel

[jcomm 6,058]

53 minutes ago, Soul Rebel said:

Glider pilots in this post, what book do you recommend to start learning about gliding?.

There are so so many...but I would recommend:

Glider Handbook | Federal Aviation Administration (faa.gov)

It's very well done !

For soaring weather you might try:

Weather Forecasting for Soaring Flight | E-Library (wmo.int)

[Bilbosmeggins 217]

Just out of curiosity, if one were to utilise these gliders in a multiplayer setup and, say, set up a competition….  Would the weather be absolutely identical on all machines? I don’t mean that each machine could have the same “type” of conditions, I mean that conditions would have to be exactly the same. If a 6-up thermal were to exist for pilot A, then all other pilots should be able to find that same thermal in exactly the same place and also try and core it. So a pilot looks across, sees another pilot thermalling, and is able to get across and enjoy the same thermal at the same time. If not, then it can only really be used for solo flights, as competition could turn out to be very unfair, and down to the luck of the draw.

Not the end of the world if conditions do vary from pc to pc. But, if that’s the case, maybe Asobo/Microsoft, could add some “canned” weather scenarios where identical conditions could be guaranteed for all. Just a thought……

[volkand 5]

6 minutes ago, jcomm said:

There are so so many...but I would recommend:

Glider Handbook | Federal Aviation Administration (faa.gov)

It's very well done !

For soaring weather you might try:

Weather Forecasting for Soaring Flight | E-Library (wmo.int)

@lwt1971, @arneh, @jcomm, great posts! I fully support your observations.

As Arneh mentions to use MSFS as a training tool for the airclub, here are some links to "real life" gliders for MSFS. All of it is freeware.
 
https://flightsim.to/file/15090/as-33-me
https://flightsim.to/file/27986/rolladen-schneider-ls4

Both gliders are equipped with total energy varios - also including MacReady support,
developed by Ian Lewis (B21, he creates soaring instruments for gliders starting with FSX).
There are YouTube videos created by Ian Lewis (B21) explaining the instruments quite comprehensive, look for "youtube b21 gliders".

I expect you know both of them, the AS33ME is modelled as a high-performance 18 meter flapped glider including a self-launch motor, built-in winch launch, water ballast, and a comprehensive racing instrument panel.
Both still work in SU11, but need to be adapted. I expect that the development team will do it soon.
Yesterday I had a "ridge soar" flight from LOIR Reutte (Austria) to LSZS Samedan (Switzerland), using the AS33ME. This one still has good flight dynamics in SU11.

There is also a browser based soaring task flight planner developed by B21 (Ian Lewis):
https://xp-soaring.github.io/tasks/b21_task_planner/

You can create gliding tasks, including "Start", "Finish" lines, to train competitions.
The tasks can be exported/downloaded in various formats, e.g. to import them as "flight plan" in MSFS.

XSOAR Navigation, is a tool for smartphones and Windows PC/Laptop, which can be connected by LAN/WLAN to the B21 Navigation-Computer of the AS33 (link above) and "kinetic-assistant" (link below) - both is optional
https://xcsoar.org

Up to SU10, I used "kinetic-assistant" for winch launch and tow plane lifts, which both worked quite realistic.
In addition "thermals" could be loaded up to SU10 to cover a certain region to fly in. Thermals can be indicated by birds or "coloured spirals".
Up to now, I coud not test it since its built in "Simconnect" seems to be broken since SU11.
https://msfs.touching.cloud/mods/kinetic-assistant/

Hope this is useful, especially for the soaring pilots around here.

Kind Regards, Volker

[jcomm 6,058]

1 hour ago, volkand said:

XSOAR Navigation, is a tool for smartphones and Windows PC/Laptop, which can be connected by LAN/WLAN to the B21 Navigation-Computer of the AS33 (link above) and "kinetic-assistant" (link below) - both is optional
https://xcsoar.org

 

XCSoar as well as Top-Hat Soaring ( easier irl, and I use both ) or LK8000, can be used with X-Plane, Condorsoaring, SilentWings, and now AFAIK MFS too !

It's great to get acquainted with these excellent freeware soaring navigators, and one of the reasons that, together with the extraordinarily true to real scenery MFS can be used for RW glider task familiarization and training.

I am still trying to make my NANO ³ GPS/Logger also work with XP and MFS.

Edited November 15, 2022 by jcomm