You injected "conspiracy" I did not. I said that there were indicators. It is good to debate the value, or even the existence of the indicators. But let us not go off to start adding conspiracy. Will whining and always complaining be next?For some the addon is a very good plus to the program. To others it is yet another INDICATOR that the program may be headed in a direction they do not like. A good argument that someone made was that without adding some gaming attributes the stagnant revenue stream may well be a trigger to consider dropping, or reducing, development. Very possible and then the customers make their decisions.Regards,Dick BoleyA PC, an LCD, speakers, CH yoke

Hopefully Microsoft received the message that the core function of the program can stand several areas of further development. If added revenue is found in the gaming world to continue the development of FSxxxx WONDERFUL. I am sure that only the most fanciful would want blood & guts also added thus I hope Microsoft does not ever move to that element. See, despite the irritations over an improper title some rational opinions did sift through the noise. The discussion was reasonably cordial with only a hint of the nasty. If, in the future, someone feels that a company is moving in a direction they may not care for, that they will be able to start a thread without the fear of the messenger being verbally trampled.Regards,Dick BoleyA PC, an LCD, speakers, CH yoke

Dick-Reality is in the eye of the beholder. When I go to Oshkosh-I save the military birds for my last visit. Just not my highest priority-but I can assure you it is a very popular area-and for those heros that flew them very real-as are the homebuilt areas (also not my cup of tea) and the ultra lights (also not my cup of tea) etc.I also haven't ever attended the Reno air races-but lots of people do.I have however found each inception of fs gets closer to reality including fsx-and it always seems to cover everyone's reality-never to everyone's hopes or expectations-but it keeps plodding forward in almost all areas. I wouldn't be using fsx if I didn't find it a huge improvement in the reality area over the last version-and for me it is-quite a bit.I am very optimistic that the next fs will increase reality-it always has since fs1-which also included the arcade ww1 fighter which I never used at the time (not my cup of tea)-and since most of the programmers of fs are real pilots and rabid about flying/flight simming I really doubt they would abandon reality... I may pass on the expansion pack-from what I have read also not my my interest -doesn't mean it is a bad thing or something that is dragging fs into the non serious gaming area-this kind of flying just doesn't turn me on-but I bet it does to a lot of other simmers/flyers. Go to Oshkosh and talk to the guys that fly their planes in scenerios like the expansion pack will and I think you will find they are rabid about that kind of reality in their real flying.Me-I'd rather fly my Baron rightside up in its' expected envelope on "boring" trips-but that is my reality. :-)

>It is changing the focus of a flight *simulation* towards an>arcade-style *game*.>>I doubt that many people in here are overly enthousatic about>racing competitions, fighter jets and multiplayer racing. I>don't get what that has anything to do with a simulation. Hmm... You might be right to state that few people 'in here' are excited about multiplayer air racing or fighter jets, but then this forum has always been singleplayer airliner central and not generally indicative of the interests of all FS users. I too would like to see bugs fixed in the sim, but I also think that there's nothing wrong with ACES catering at last to the other portion of their market, the ones who like low and fast flight. The precision and situational awareness required for that kind of flight is mind boggling, and I want more of that experience in FSX. As for combat, I really wouldn't mind that either, would certainly make dealing with certain multiplayer ATC sessions a lot more interesting. ;)To any who think that this expansion is a sign of ACES dumbing down the experience of flight simulator, I'd ask you to look at a little first person shooter called "Armed Assault" that hit the market a few months back. It's been a smashing success because it's given a lot of those 'blood and guts' teenage gamers something they've been after for a long time in the FPS market... realism, and an intellectual experience rather than a 'twitch' one. It features one shot kills, proper ballistics, concealment, and a battlefield that allows for the employment of realworld strategy and tactics in a robust coordinated multiplayer environment. It is everything that the average run and gun shooter is not, and it has been immensely successful precisely for that reason. Its learning curve is even steeper than FSX, it's that realistic. I often refer to it FSX on the ground with guns :).There's always going to be a market, a smaller one perhaps but a devoted one that loves realism above all else in a game/simulation. I don't think ACES has forgotten that. Whatever type of flying turns your crank in flight simulator, at the end of the day it's the realism most of us came into it for I think. Otherwise how many of us that are not real world pilots would have gotten over the near vertical learning curve required to properly enjoy any facet of this sim? I think ACES can balance the need to broaden the scope of flight simulator while keeping things on track in the realism and flight modeling department. In fact it's when you're flying aircraft at the edge of their performance envelopes that the problems in your flight models really start to show, and any fixes discovered through that may well have a knockon effect for all FS aircraft down the line.I say bravo!

>I hate to say it, but I>think Flight Sim is getting very mature. With each new>version, there are less and less features left to add to the>simulator. There is less and less compelling reason for most>people to upgrade! Although I do agree that FS is getting more mature, I don't agree that there are less features left to be added. I bet the ACES suggestion box is full of features that simmers would like have added, and we may be seeing some of these implemented in each new future version. FS is maturing, but I think practically everyone will agree that it will never reach an "end" where there are no more features to be added. As long as that is true, we will always look to upgrade to the newest version (if the hardware is willing).

You're right Dick,Perhaps "conspiracy" was rather a harsh term, but I used it as tongue-in-cheek comment! I wasn't trying to demean your post, only trying to inject my own feelings regarding the negativity that seems to permeate these forums.You are of course entitled to your opinions as to where this trend may lead, but I would much rather accept the innovations, and just choose whether or not to use them!I apologize if I offended you.Pete S. :-beerchug

We'll probably always be trampled a bit for suggesting that ACES has gone off in the wrong direction Dick. But, that's just the price we have to pay for being right :-) .Doug

moved farther down...

Sids and Stars ----- blah! :-hah ATC ------:-erks Bring on the military, Red Bull racing & lot's of rudder kicking!!!Reno Races, the Warbirds/Homebuilts/Experimental at Oshkosh would be, and have been my first stops of interest! The Red Bull races at Utah's senic Monument Valley just a few months ago were something to be seen!The airline pilot's (and my former aerobatic instructor)Pitt's M-12 with that big Russian 400 hp radial, three blade prop, that sit's in the same hangar where my plane is; isn't for idle conversation with the tower & IMC. It's for gut wrenching rudder work, and what "flying's" all about! :-lol Yes-----------Bring on the "Expansion Pack"!!! :-jumpy L.Adamson

Couldn't agree more.....there is more than enough room for every type of flying in FS, that's what makes the series great and so appealing to the masses.Soaring, floating, Airline, Search and Rescue, Coast Guard ops, Military ops, General Aviation, Racing, Multiplayer etc.... what's next? Space maybe? Skies the limit (pun intended).Not everyone flies from LAX to Heathrow in a 747 pretending to haul 300 passengers for 12 hours. If you do then great, but you have to have that urger every once in awhile to just jump in a plane and roll the bugger, or dive to the ground and pull near blackout g forces. Hey, or maybe challenge that arrogant poster who dared contradict your ideas on how things should be to a race down the grand canyon... :)What about cross country racing through the Rockies, below 10000 feet trying to find the optimal path through the mountain passes?Sounds like a fun diversion from the normal IFR flight every once in awhile, not to mention engine damage and whatever other features they may be adding if I remember correctly?Ian.

I didn't realize it was already time for one of these threads again. Pat, in regards to your thread specifically, you're doing that thing where you speak for everyone on a topic.>I doubt that many people in here are overly enthousatic about>racing competitions, fighter jets and multiplayer racing.>Missions? Most people fly a mission once.Turns out, some of us are. How about that.>I am certainly not interested in a "Red Bull"-like racing>competition or flying fighter jets and I think that most>flight simmer just shake their heads in disbelieve, fearing FS>on XBox with a 4-button controller.I hate to nitpick, but the XBOX 360 controller has 14 buttons, two analog shoulder buttons and two analog sticks.>It seems to be the general direction that serious simulation>games with a tradition that stretches for decades and with>huge following are going to be "dumbed-down" to be more>appealing to reach a broader market That last one is the one one that gets me the most. If they aren't changing the flight dynamics or the core simulation engine, how is it dumbing down at all? Isn't pushing an airplane to it's limits under the same simulation engine AT LEAST as challenging as flying it straight and level? And to further that point, are you suggesting that people like me who would prefer to simulate Red Bull races or military formation flying are dumber than simmers who would rather punch a flight plan into a FMC and flip the autopilot switch? There's nothing changed from FS9 to FSX or FSX to Acceleration! that suggests that they are removing or altering any of the flight dynamic sections of the simulator to make it more arcade-like. The realism sliders are the same, the majority of planes are GA and airliners, the sim still allows for complex add-on aircraft. How is it then, that adding racing ON-TOP of that indicates a change in direction? Logically that argument doesn't make sense. You're saying that you've got a cake in a flavor that you really like, and most of the frosting is the flavor you like, but a third of it gets some extra frosting added on top in a different flavor, one that you haven't even tasted yet, and you immediately jump to the conclusion that this means that all future cakes and icing with be entirely the new flavor. It's a pretty big leap there for something as small as a few new planes and missions.I'm not speaking for AVSIM on this issue at all, this is my own personal feelings, but I get a little insulted every time some one suggests that the methods of simulating flight that I enjoy are somehow less important, less intelligent or worth less to community of flight simulation as a whole.

If ACES wants to build an Add-On so be it. I have no intention of buying this "Acceleration" or whatever it is called, but if ACES needs to sell it to make money, and people are willing to buy and enjoy what it is offering, so be it. It really won't have an impact on my FSX experience.I do think ACES will run into problems though if they do either of the following:1) Start tying features to Add-On upgradesThis would be a major no-no on ACES part, and I don't think they are planning on doing this. At least they are not tying DX-10 capabilities to their "Acceleration" Add-On. This would virtually force everyone to buy an Add-On that they don't want just to get a new feature. This business model works for $20-$40 games, and their little $20-$30 add-ons. However, This would be rather offensive to customers who paid over $70 for a game, and now have to fork over even more money just to get one or two new features added to their experience of that game. In the end, you could have well over $100 in FSX not counting what you buy from the Add-On third party companies.2) Start competing directly with third-party add-on companiesIf ACES starts putting out products that directly compete with third party add-on companies, they could virtually destroy that market. Developers working for small FS Add-On companies will not put thousands of hours into a project that ACES announces they are including in their next add-on pack. We all know that third party add-on companies completely blow default "whatever" from ACES out of the water. This is not a slam against ACES at all. The reason third party add-ons are so much better than what ACES gives us by default is because third party add-on developers can focus on one small area of the flight simulator and perfect that area (flight planners, weather packages, airplanes, helicopters, ect...). ACES couldn't possibly put all that time into one small area of the flight simulator and deliver the same result. They have everything else to worry about. If ACES started "unexpectedly" delivering stuff to the market in the forms of add-ons, third party developers will avoid working on anything in fear they would be the next to be hit. What I am saying is you cannot split the add-on market up between third party add-ons and ACES add-ons simply because it is not big enough for everyone to profit from their efforts in a way that encourages new product development. Third Party Add-On developers is what makes Flight Simulator what it is in my opinion. Without them, I would probably not even bother.

What in the world is Dick Boley talking about?

Another way to look at it is with MS releasing an add-on to the masses which most likely will be available on many online and real stores across the world may bring attention to the fact that 3rd party add-ons exist for FS.Should be interesting to see where this leads.Ian.

Is it true that with directx 10. Cloud shadows will be added? I read this a while ago...