X-Plane 12: the most superb ...

[flying_carpet 662]

... commercially available civil desktop simulator for jammed aileron. I'm thrilled. What would you guys do, to escape this situation?

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by flying_carpet

[Bjoern 1,158]

48 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

What would you guys do, to escape this situation?

Accept the sweet embrace of death and hope I hit an accordeon factory or a mime school on my way down.

[jcomm 5,996]

Aileron jams are survivable!

I'm a living  proof of that, in a wrongly rigged glider wing 😒

Rudder and that mighty yaw-induced roll were never so welcome 😁 but I would rather not try an elevator jam ...

Edited January 1, 2023 by cagarini

[flying_carpet 662]

41 minutes ago, cagarini said:

I'm a living  proof of that, ...

Me too 😉, although only illustrated by some colorful pixels 😁.

 

[snglecoil 1,828]

It’s a Cirrus. The aileron and elevator are spring loaded to return to a position set by the trim. I would try aileron trim to see if it responded. If not…Pull the ‘chute. That’s what’s it there for. Not even joking. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by snglecoil

[flying_carpet 662]

8 hours ago, snglecoil said:

It’s a Cirrus. The aileron and elevator are spring loaded to return to a position set by the trim. I would try aileron trim to see if it responded. If not…Pull the ‘chute. That’s what’s it there for. Not even joking. 

What if I did this with another plane, which hasn't a 'chute? But ... as I did it with an SR 22 ... good idea! Thanks for the hint. Why should I land it safely and undamaged with the help of the rudder, if I can smash it to the ground with the 'chute? *Facepalm* At least, your comment wasn't COMPLETELY off topic. Thanks for that.
But maybe it was actually intended as a kind of silly humor a la Monty Python... if so ... 👍 ... I'm loving it.

[snglecoil 1,828]

54 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

What if I did this with another plane, which hasn't a 'chute? But ... as I did it with an SR 22 ... good idea! Thanks for the hint. Why should I land it safely and undamaged with the help of the rudder, if I can smash it to the ground with the 'chute? *Facepalm* At least, your comment wasn't COMPLETELY off topic. Thanks for that.
But maybe it was actually intended as a kind of silly humor a la Monty Python... if so ... 👍 ... I'm loving it.

It’s all situational. If the plane didn’t have a BRS, you do whatever you can. As you nicely demonstrated in your second video, with a single aileron failure at least you have some roll control and ability to supplement with rudder to get it on the ground.

As far as the parachute, I told you I wasn’t joking. Cirrus has a 100% survival rate when CAPS has been deployed within speed and altitude envelopes. If my choice is to take anything less than a 100% chance that my skill and conditions allow me to safely land the plane or pull CAPS and guarantee that go home to my family that day…insurance owns the plane, I’m taking the sure thing. …But that’s in real life. At least the sim allows you to take the chance. 

[Phantom88 3,289]

JUMP!!!

 

 

[SAS443 1,729]

4 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

What if I did this with another plane, which hasn't a 'chute? But ... as I did it with an SR 22 ... good idea! Thanks for the hint. Why should I land it safely and undamaged with the help of the rudder, if I can smash it to the ground with the 'chute? *Facepalm* At least, your comment wasn't COMPLETELY off topic. Thanks for that

loss of control surfaces is one of the instances where pulling the chute is validated. That and spatial desorientation. @snglecoil is dead on the money. 

I fly a plane with BRS IRL, we were drilled to not be heroes (or even test pilots).  Yes we had scenario where jammed ailerons were discussed (incl the Electric tabs) and for most GA-flyers this is what would happen especially when flying IMC or at night.
 

• Ailerons gets jammed unexpectedly (key word)
• Bank is  increasing and suddenly approaching 90 degrees
• lift vector is basically horisontal at this point, VSI is indicating a significant loss of lift
  • for many a natural reaction is to prevent the altitude loss by raising the nose
  • meaning yoke is pulled aft
• That is however a fatal move since the roles of aileron and elevators are now reversed
  • by trying to raise the nose, the turn is getting steeper and steeper with greater wingload and increased sink rate
• Congratulations to a spectacular death by spiral dive! 

 If you're lucky your name will be on a memory plaque next to the huge crater you made. And Hopefully you did not hit any houses or a shopping mall and avoided innocent people for your 15 mins of fame. Crashing a plane with an un-used chute is 1000 times dumber than crashing due to fuel starvation b/c of failure to switch tanks.

Now, using the chute during loss of engine where suitable landing sites are within reach is a different story. We are all proficient (or should be at least) gliding safely to the designated touchdown point and in theory should not need it. Hence the word "consider using rescue chute" in our emergency checklists if engine fails to re-start.

Edited January 2, 2023 by SAS443

[flying_carpet 662]

5 hours ago, SAS443 said:

<snip>

• Ailerons gets jammed unexpectedly (key word)

<snip>

Wow! "Ailerons gets jammed unexpectedly". I didn't expect that ... So - I should not EVEN TRY, to escape with the aerodynamic help of the rudder? If I fail, I still can use the parachute. What if the aileron is jammed at 500 ft AGL? Should I first try to deploy the parachute, and if that doesn't work fast enough, try the rudder? Is that the level of MSFS pilots? Thanks for your professional hints.
EXACTLY for such scenarios professional flight simulators are used, i.e. you have this automatism in your memory and don't hectically have to think about what to do. I assume, the builtin failures are one of the (main) factors that - as we all know - X-Plane is FAA certified.

[snglecoil 1,828]

1 hour ago, flying_carpet said:

as we all know - X-Plane is FAA certified.

So is P3D. In fact, Redbird, one of the largest providers of ATDs, uses P3D as their software. FAA certification is not this lofty "Gold Standard" that I think you think it is. There are certainly requirements that the software has to meet, but the bar is not as high as you may think.

If you'd like to see for yourself:

FAA Approval of Aviation Training Devices and Their Use for Training and Experience 

If the fact that X-Plane is FAA certified makes you feel better about your purchase decision, that's outstanding! Go team XP! MSFS doesn't meet the requirements, but it doesn't seem that it would take too much for them to add the required functionality if they really wanted pursue it. It doesn't look like that is in their plans and that's ok.

[SAS443 1,729]

@flying_carpet Do whatever you want. It's your virtual plane.

I'm speaking from experience from training programme by the manufacturer. Your average GA pilot who flies 30hrs per year will make stupid decisions when facing failures of this nature.  Startle effect and weak decisions go hand in hand. And most of us are not UPRT endorsed at all, obviously.

Plenty of lives have been lost just by pulling the chute too late (or by not pull it at all) There's a reason why they remind us to 'pull early, pull often '. And for the record, in Cirrus case they had for a while an extremely high fatality/accident rate despite being the few types with a BRS.

Also a piece of fitting history

"The first Cirrus parachute “save” took place in October 2002, during a post-maintenance flight when an improperly installed aileron became stuck and caused a control malfunction. The pilot, who was alone in the airplane, deployed the chute and it brought him down safely"

So, if the aileron gets stuck at 500ft AGL  by then you have most likely already completed the "flaps and CAPS / CAPS alive" mental check (originated from Cirrus btw, must be a real eye opener for you). Were you even aware about Cirrus policy of having their pilots being CAPS-ready at 500ft AGL? It certainly doesn't sound like it. 

And finally "is that the level of MSFS pilots",  you wrote. Do you mean they act accordingly to real manufacturer safety recommendations (it's not my "professional" hints FYI) and not what an XP-simmer on Avsim is trying to suggest? Or how should I interpret that?

Edited January 3, 2023 by SAS443

[flying_carpet 662]

Ok, so ... thanks for the hints.

How do you reproduce this in MSFS?

[snglecoil 1,828]

The truth is out there…but it seems you are more interested your personal crusade rather than discussing the merits of XPlane on its own. @Krakin, I think you called it.
I’m out.

[flying_carpet 662]

32 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

The truth is out there…but it seems you are more interested your personal crusade rather than discussing the merits of XPlane on its own. @Krakin, I think you called it.
I’m out.

Well ... it hurts having the mirror held up, isn't it?

Edited January 3, 2023 by flying_carpet