GPS V2 tested. 3 fails 2 successes with VOR LOC on ac with GPS installed.

It failed twice then I switched back to GPS/NAV mode and back to VLOC AFTER capture THEN it worked twice in a row.

Then it failed on landing. I expected poor intercept I did not expect complete failure to intercept. Each time green bar activated yet AP refused to turn ac onto track.

https://imgur.com/gallery/fokker-27-mk500-v2-0-gps-vor-p-lock-on-test-scba-2jseXqC

If I'm doing something wrong please let me know!

GPS set to VLOC NO flight plane no destination set in MSFS so no ghost plan in effect. HDG mode then VOR selected. VOR captures with green bar HDG mode deactivates but plane will not turn at all to intercept.

EXCEPT after I cycled VLOC?GPS mode on DURING capture then it worked. Twice. Then stopped working again.

7 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

I regularly fly up from SAWH all the way up though the Andes and finish on the US/Mexican border. There are some great freeware airports all the way on fs.to . Best thing is VOR is still very active and you can use it to fly the whole route with VOR/DME/ILS at every major airport too.

Will definitely have to check that out!

7 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

I need to research real life of course but ...as far as I know: on AP HDG mode. Fly toward say 45 degree intercept. When needle starts to move (or earlier in my test below) press VOR/LOC. When AP decides the angle is 'right' it turns ac onto track. If you going to fast it will overshoot of course and weave IRL. Except it seems to always do this with gps planes. In test below it took 3 turns to get right. Why not just one? I was flying slow and it was an easy intercept. No overshoot though.

Not sure exactly what you mean when you say it took 3 turns but didn't overshoot?

I'd say 45 degrees is already a relatively aggressive intercept angle -- I think it wouldn't be out of character for an analog autopilot of this vintage to take a while to stabilize on the radial in this situation. So from what you describe, there isn't anything that stands out as necessarily wrong -- but maybe I'm misunderstanding?

7 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

OK off to do the updated version now, first with gps-free livery (not sure how to do that though hmmm).

The non-GPS versions of the liveries have names that end in "Classic" -- so for example "Air Inter 1980 Classic" as opposed to "Air Inter 1980 GPS". If you're using liveries downloaded from flightsim.to, I assume hardly any of them have been updated to add the GPS, so the vast majority should be "classic" liveries. If you want to check, look at the aircraft.cfg file for the livery -- if it has `panel = ""`, it's a "classic" (non-GPS) livery.

3 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

GPS V2 tested. 3 fails 2 successes with VOR LOC on ac with GPS installed.

It failed twice then I switched back to GPS/NAV mode and back to VLOC AFTER capture THEN it worked twice in a row.

Then it failed on landing. I expected poor intercept I did not expect complete failure to intercept. Each time green bar activated yet AP refused to turn ac onto track.

https://imgur.com/gallery/fokker-27-mk500-v2-0-gps-vor-p-lock-on-test-scba-2jseXqC

If I'm doing something wrong please let me know!

Nothing that I can see.

I do note that in the screenshots you posted, the intercept angle is very aggressive (almost 90 degrees). I'd still expect the autopilot to turn though, instead of continuing straight on, though it might oscillate a few times before stabilizing on the radial. Did you do any tests with a smaller intercept angle?

It does look, in any case, as if something's broken with the VOR intercept behavior in these tests. (Just to confirm: Your GNS 530 is updated to the latest version?)

I think the interesting test now is to test a "classic" (non-GPS) livery in version 1.1 and see if that matches the behavior you got with version 1.0 (which would be my hope/expectation).

53 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

Nothing that I can see

Ah the one after this was missed out. This is a normal intercept yes? The shot missing is after this one and shows the line gone past. You can see green bar but ap keeps going straight. Regardless of angle the ap should always try to intercept but in this case no attempt despite heading mode being turned off by app as5a sign it WAS now vor loc. 

I presumed I was up to date on all 2020 updates? How do I check the wt? Are wt responsible for vor adf navigation in base sim as well? 

 

On 12/27/2024 at 10:52 PM, martinboehme said:

By the way, I recently published a review of the F27 on the German-language flight simulation news site cruiselevel.de.

Excellent review! Reminded me of a few things.

There is a red light mod on fs.to. Adds very nice night lighting in a kind of amber white tone, very usable but the red light is gone except for that reading light that doesn't really illuminate anything.

The 2nd version GPS mod does indeed make all previous liveries obsolete with missing textures in the cockpit, although that may be the high def mod. I will be going back to original version anyway so that does not bother me.

The TGT switches? I found that they do in fact move and you can lower the TGT although it's such a slow process and like you mention has no effect on engine condition so it's not really worth bothering with. I also ran engines flat out at first with no effect. The reason I could not move them before is they do not recognise the standard hold/repeat mouse command. I was holding/dragging to no effect before. I could only get them to work in MSFS by multiple solid clicks. Each click works a small amount so about 5-10 to make a difference. Just holding does nothing. If you could bind this to a button in FSUIPC you could add repeat function there but hardly seems worth it!

Anyway forgot to mention that before, your review reminded me!

BTW when the GPS version DID work with VOR lock it tracked it very well albeit not like a VOR usually does, very smooth and quick. The non GPS version took a couple of attempts to get straight. Major issue is the GPS failed completely 3 times out of 5 to even track at all with AP unless I toggled VLOC off and on again.

Adding GPS certainly changes VOR lock on behaviour distinctly. It is obvious. Ironically it changes it from unrealistic default to a new unrealistic so I'm not really that bothered anymore EXCEPT without GPS it always works.

Can someone help me with the clickspot for the manuals?

When I click the pedestal, it just goes up and down a bit and no manuals....

9 hours ago, petejohno1 said:

Can someone help me with the clickspot for the manuals?

When I click the pedestal, it just goes up and down a bit and no manuals....

You look between pilot seat and pedastal. There is a notebook each side. You will have to move your point of view to see the first officers. Click once and the notebook itself will pop up. 

14 hours ago, martinboehme said:

non-GPS versions of the liveries have names that end in "Classic

Thanks! My next test is the new version with no physical gps in livery. As its an obvious difference between ap behaviour when the GPS is installed it should be quick and easy to see if the new version is completely non - gps influenced when a livery without it is used. 

For reference :

Original no gps enabled :

Interception occurs 100% of the time, but ap can take 2 or 3 attempts to get it straight on track. 

Update with gps enabled :

Interception unreliable. Will sometimes work and others not occur at all. When it does occur it will intercept perfectly first time smoothly (maybe not irl accurately but it works). There is no hunting for perfect track after interception. 

On 12/6/2024 at 8:06 AM, martinboehme said:

There's also a Simbrief profile here:

https://flightsim.to/file/85509/fokker-f27mk-500-simbrief-profile

For those who like using paper checklists, I've uploaded one here:

https://flightsim.to/file/85741/fokker-f-27-500-checklist

Martin- Loved your article.  Would you please elaborate on how to install the Simbrief profile please?  I'm with Jon- like the 27 but loved the 748. Still miss Rick Piper's... thanks for doing all of this for us!

C

19 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Ah the one after this was missed out. This is a normal intercept yes?

This looks normal, though it is already pretty close to the VOR (can't read the DME - is that a 3 or a 5)?

But it does seem as if the VOR intercept behavior is problematic with the GNS 530 active (unless it's caused by it not being up to date, see below).

19 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

I presumed I was up to date on all 2020 updates? How do I check the wt?

This is in the content manager. Not currently at my computer, so I can't check, but there's more information here:

 

4 minutes ago, cavaricooper said:

Martin- Loved your article.  Would you please elaborate on how to install the Simbrief profile please?

Not currently at my computer, but from memory: The ZIP file that you download contains a text file, which in turns contains an HTTP link that will add the profile to Simbrief.

Open the text file in Notepad (you should be able to do this by double clicking the file). Copy the entire contents of the file to the clipboard (Ctrl-A Ctrl-C), then go to your browser, click the address bar, and paste the contents of the file there (Ctrl-V). Press Enter, and Simbrief will open with a screen that allows you to save the new aircraft profile.

18 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

The TGT switches? I found that they do in fact move and you can lower the TGT although it's such a slow process and like you mention has no effect on engine condition so it's not really worth bothering with. I also ran engines flat out at first with no effect. The reason I could not move them before is they do not recognise the standard hold/repeat mouse command. I was holding/dragging to no effect before. I could only get them to work in MSFS by multiple solid clicks.

The best way I've found to operate them is to spin the mouse wheel while the mouse pointer is between the two switches. That changes the setting pretty quickly.

5 hours ago, martinboehme said:

Not currently at my computer, but from memory: The ZIP file that you download contains a text file, which in turns contains an HTTP link that will add the profile to Simbrief.

Open the text file in Notepad (you should be able to do this by double clicking the file). Copy the entire contents of the file to the clipboard (Ctrl-A Ctrl-C), then go to your browser, click the address bar, and paste the contents of the file there (Ctrl-V). Press Enter, and Simbrief will open with a screen that allows you to save the new aircraft profile.

That did the trick!  Ta Martin!

C

6 hours ago, cavaricooper said:

I'm with Jon- like the 27 but loved the 748

Whenever I fly to Delhi and I see the old HAL 748 they have parked up there , I always think of your ice cream story 🙂

18 hours ago, martinboehme said:

The best way I've found to operate them is to spin the mouse wheel while the mouse pointer is between the two switches.

I tried that on my long 3 hour test flight with the non GPS v2 yesterday. Could not get any movement sadly. Tried different viewpoints. Not really an issue as it seems to make no difference anyway and who wants less power on a 3 hour flight anyway lol?

About to do my last test, back in the original v1 version with no gps at all.

Yesterday's test with v2 gps plane with non-gps livery was interesting. 

Conclusions so far:

GPS in plane - VOR broken/unreliable don't use it. Not an issue as anyone putting that thing is this beauty won't care about VOR anyway!

GPS plane/classic non-gps livery - Captures every time, no failures but capture method is unreliable for precision approaches. On my 4 vor station long Andes trip it got me over 600nm safely TO my destination but unrealistic capture method makes it unsafe for approach. Could not follow plate safely. Intercept requested 20 miles out for initial 12 mile fix but whatever angle I set and no matter distance VOR capture occurs immediately and plane turns to 45 degree intercept therefore cutting 10 miles off my flight plane and leaving me 6 miles from airport in IMC at way too high altitude.

Now before this flight I did a LOT of research into Ap VOR behavior, read all the following links which were hard to find but very informative!

https://www.captainsim.org/forum/csf.pl?num=1336753875/9

 

https://community.justflight.com/topic/1882/autopilot-swaying-left-and-right-of-track

 

https://wiki.ivao.aero/en/home/training/documentation/Intercept_and_follow_a_VOR_radial#:~:text=Reaching%20the%20course%20heading,in%20order%20to%20re%2Dintercept

 

https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/219495-320-autopilot-localiser-radial-capture.html

 

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/71649/what-turn-to-intercept-a-radial-and-how-to-tune-in-b737ng-sim

 

Even the Airbus apparently is not certified to allow raw vor precision approaches, only enroute nav.  I get that jets with INS/FMC systems do not have Cat III VOR capable systems as backup but the planes with ONLY VOR , like the F28 and 717 for example SHOULD have safe VOR capture close to transmitter (8-15 miles). Obviously if you are trying to capture at less than 5 miles you should go around instead!

 

The test today is to see if the original v1 version can actually do precision approach as I've learned so much from the above data and that 3 hour flight with the classic livery that I need to go back and complete my testing thoroughly as I did with v2 version.

More later!

I didn't take many screens as they don't show what's going on well but it was a 3 hour flight so had to have SOME record! The failed approach capture is displayed here. It will work in MANUAL of course but that's not why I'm testing! If you MUST use VOR in the v2 plane then capture manually where you want to, then set plane to follow the track. DO NOT trust the ap to do the capture, you might hit a mountain...

https://imgur.com/gallery/scba-samm-vor-test-fokker-f27-mk500-v2-classic-no-gps-installed-d7z0EAt