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Logging B200 Time as a PPL

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Good evening, Can a private pilot like myself(PPL ASEL,AMEL Instrument Airplane) legally log flight time while flying the King Air B200 under part 91 for the time when I am actually controlling the aircraft? If so, what would be the best way to do this? The reason I am asking is because an opportunity might present itself in the very near future for me to assist with the "dead" legs of a part 135 operation, and since I am currently time buiding towards my commercial, I think this would be a good way to build some time(if its legal). The actual PIC will be an ATP rated pilot and he thinks that it shouldn't be a problem, but I would really appreciate a few more opinions. Thanks.J.C. (MYNN)PPL ASEL, AMEL Instrument Airplane

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Absolutely. Just had this conversation with a CFI the other day.Jeff

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No problem at all. Technically speaking, since you don't have your commercial rating yet, as long as your not being paid (flying for hire) to be PIC your very legal. Great way to build time. I did similar deadleg flights myself...the PIC usually went to the cabin to take a nap. Good luck and have funJohn M

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just make sure if you are later going to an airline that you will probably be questioned on it and that you better know every system well.One other thing though, do you have your high altitude endorsement?

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Good evening, Thanks for all the replies. In regards to the high altitude endorsement, according to part 61.31(g), since I won't be the actual PIC (I'll just be logging PIC time for the time that I'm actually flying the aircraft), the endorsement is not technically necessary (according to my ATP-rated friend). Any futher insight though would be appreciated.J.C. (MYNN)PPL ASEL,AMEL Instrument Airplane

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Sorry if i sound stupid, but what are deadleg flights?:-zhelp:-shy ThanksDave

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They are non-revenue producing flights. Usually the result from one-way charter flights. Operators hate them because they are losing money on the flight. Sometimes they will charge the customer for the cost to return the airplane to its home base, sometimes not. Depends on the customer and/or what kind of contract they have with the charter company.Think of it like a cab driving you from the airport to your house. The cabbie will charge you for driving you to your house, but unless your neighbor happens to be going to the airport when you arrive and can take the same cab back to the airport, the cabbie will be driving back to the airport without a fare. This could be called a "dead leg".John MJust a small side note on the analogy above....Charter pilots are the cab drivers of the skies, while the airline jocks are the bus/truck drivers of the airways.

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Geoff, is Wings of Mercy requiring 2 pilots an insurance or FAA issue?

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>>Good evening,> Can a private pilot like myself(PPL ASEL,AMEL Instrument>Airplane) legally log flight time while flying the King Air>B200 under part 91 for the time when I am actually controlling>the aircraft? If so, what would be the best way to do this?>The reason I am asking is because an opportunity might present>itself in the very near future for me to assist with the>"dead" legs of a part 135 operation, and since I am currently>time buiding towards my commercial, I think this would be a>good way to build some time(if its legal). The actual PIC will>be an ATP rated pilot and he thinks that it shouldn't be a>problem, but I would really appreciate a few more opinions.>Thanks.>>J.C. (MYNN)>PPL ASEL, AMEL Instrument AirplaneJ.C.I'm a little late to the party, but nonetheless... :)As you probably know, the key to whether one can "log" PIC is contained in FAR 61.51, and 61.51 only. In this discussion, it is also important to understand that generally the FAA views "logging PIC" and "acting PIC" as separate issues, despite the common term used. There are a number of FAA Legal Opinion to this effect. The aspect of 61.51 that pertains to your question is:(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person

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Hi Jeff, Thanks for your very detailed reply. As far as I'm aware, the B200 doesn't require a type rating. Thanks again.J.C. (MYNN) PPL ASEL, AMEL Instrument Airplane(Aiming for COMM SEL,MEL by Xmas)

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>>In essense, if you are a recreational, private or commercial>pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator>of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.>[61.51(e)(1)(i)] >>According to FAA Legal Opinions, "rated" means the category>and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the>aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot>certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not>endorsements for high performance, complex, or tailwheel>aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night>currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.>>As an aside, note that the rule is different for sport pilots>who have endorsed "privileges" for aircraft in their logbooks>insetad of ratings on their pilot certifciates.>>Now, back to your question about flying the B200. Obviously,>it is a MEL aircraft. Additionally, you have a Private>Certificate for Airplane Multiengine Land. So long as you are>the sole manipulator of the controls, you are permitted to log>that time as PIC. However, remember that "rated" as used in>61.51(e)(1)(i) not only means category/class, it also includes>type ratings. My recollection is that most King Air's don't>require a type rating, except for the 300's and 350's.While sure that is the wording of the FAR/AIM I certainly wouldn't put that up against an FAA inspector. Being rated for the airplane does only go as far as category and class in the FARs, I guarentee an FAA inspector would fine you for not having the HP and Complex ratings. Are you rated for category and class? Sure. Why else would they have complex and high performance endorsements? I can go fly my C-182RG for category and class rather easily but is the really legal? It's up to you to decide if it's a smart move.The FARs are a huge grey area but it is up to you to decide between what is legal and what is plain stupid just to get 2 hours of B200 time.

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>>>>In essense, if you are a recreational, private or commercial>>pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator>>of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.>>[61.51(e)(1)(i)] >>>>According to FAA Legal Opinions, "rated" means the category>>and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the>>aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot>>certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings.>Not>>endorsements for high performance, complex, or tailwheel>>aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not>night>>currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.>>>>As an aside, note that the rule is different for sport>pilots>>who have endorsed "privileges" for aircraft in their>logbooks>>insetad of ratings on their pilot certifciates.>>>>Now, back to your question about flying the B200. >Obviously,>>it is a MEL aircraft. Additionally, you have a Private>>Certificate for Airplane Multiengine Land. So long as you>are>>the sole manipulator of the controls, you are permitted to>log>>that time as PIC. However, remember that "rated" as used in>>61.51(e)(1)(i) not only means category/class, it also>includes>>type ratings. My recollection is that most King Air's don't>>require a type rating, except for the 300's and 350's.>>While sure that is the wording of the FAR/AIM I certainly>wouldn't put that up against an FAA inspector. Being rated>for the airplane does only go as far as category and class in>the FARs, I guarentee an FAA inspector would fine you for not>having the HP and Complex ratings. Are you rated for category>and class? Sure. Why else would they have complex and high>performance endorsements? I can go fly my C-182RG for>category and class rather easily but is the really legal? >It's up to you to decide if it's a smart move.>>The FARs are a huge grey area but it is up to you to decide>between what is legal and what is plain stupid just to get 2>hours of B200 time.But you usually get your high performance and complex anyways when you do your ME training so I don't know what the the problem would be for that one. The only thing I would have the problem with is 61.31(g).

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>>>But you usually get your high performance and complex anyways>when you do your ME training so I don't know what the the>problem would be for that one. The only thing I would have the>problem with is 61.31(g).>Yes, for the B200 he will need the High Altitude endorsement. The only way you can log PIC time is being the 'sole manipulator on the controls'. You can not log SIC time in the B200 because it only requires 1 pilot as per the Aircraft Type Certificate. If the regular B200 pilot had his CFI-MEI certs. than there is ways around that, but since you said he does not you will need the HA endorse in 61.31(g).

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If the left seat pilot has his ifr hood on it could be possible.When practicing flying in simulated instrument conditions with a safety pilot, both the pilot flying the aircraft by reference to instruments and the safety pilot may log PIC time if the safety pilot is acting as PIC. As long as the pilot flying the aircraft is rated for the aircraft being flown, he/she may log this time as PIC because he/she is sole manipulator of the controls (FAR 61.51). Because the pilot flying will be wearing a view-limiting device, a safety pilot will be a required crewmember on board (FAR 91.109). The safety pilot may log as PIC any flight time for which he/she is acting PIC in an operation requiring more than one pilot crewmember (FAR 61.51).http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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>If the left seat pilot has his ifr hood on it could be>possible.>>When practicing flying in simulated instrument conditions with>a safety pilot, both the pilot flying the aircraft by>reference to instruments and the safety pilot may log PIC time>if the safety pilot is acting as PIC. As long as the pilot>flying the aircraft is rated for the aircraft being flown,>he/she may log this time as PIC because he/she is sole>manipulator of the controls (FAR 61.51). Because the pilot>flying will be wearing a view-limiting device, a safety pilot>will be a required crewmember on board (FAR 91.109). The>safety pilot may log as PIC any flight time for which he/she>is acting PIC in an operation requiring more than one pilot>crewmember (FAR 61.51).>>>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpgCorrect, and it also says "...atleast a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings to the aircraft being flown." So, again, it comes down to the way the FAA is going to see it; being that you are not "really" rated for the aircraft without the endorsements, even though the FARs are one misleading bag of trash you have to look at it in terms of what they are going to see it as, what it really says and what is just plain stupid to do.

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>>That refers to the pilot who is the "sole manipulator of the>controls"-not the safety pilot who is a required crew member>at that point.>Check out aopa-they have quite a bit on this.>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg91.109(:((1)"No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless - (1)The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."

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Take a look at this from aopa-and the scenerios:http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.htmlThe op states he has a multiengine land classification unless I am misunderstanding something.From aopa-note the last line:What qualifications are necessary for a safety pilot to be able to properly perform this duty? FAR 91.109(:((1) requires that the safety pilot hold at least a private pilot certificate. The pilot certificate must have category and class ratings that are appropriate to the aircraft being flown. To remind you, there are five categories of aircraft: airplane, rotorcraft, glider, lighter-than-air, and powered-lift. The most relevant to our discussion here are airplane and rotorcraft. Within the airplane category there are four classes: single-engine land, single-engine sea, multiengine land, and multiengine sea. Within the rotorcraft category are two classes: helicopter and gyroplane. So, for example, the regulation requires that the safety pilot of a multiengine airplane be multiengine-rated.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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>>Good evening,> Can a private pilot like myself(PPL ASEL,AMEL Instrument>Airplane) legally log flight time while flying the King Air>B200 under part 91 for the time when I am actually controlling>the aircraft? If so, what would be the best way to do this?>The reason I am asking is because an opportunity might present>itself in the very near future for me to assist with the>"dead" legs of a part 135 operation, and since I am currently>time buiding towards my commercial, I think this would be a>good way to build some time(if its legal). The actual PIC will>be an ATP rated pilot and he thinks that it shouldn't be a>problem, but I would really appreciate a few more opinions.>Thanks.>>J.C. (MYNN)>PPL ASEL, AMEL Instrument AirplaneI'm assuming your goal is to get a job some day as a commercial pilot. When you begin filling out airline job applications, one thing you will notice is that for the columns asking for your PIC time, they will often clarify that they are only interested in flight time where you are actually the actual acting PIC. So if you are going to be logging "PIC" time when you aren't really the one who is acting as PIC or even qualified, then you will just end up having to back all this time in the King Air out of your totals. A job also means at some point you will go sit down at an interview and open up your logbook to them. Ask yourself whether you want everything in your logbook to be unquestionable or whether you want to risk having an awkward moment with your interviewer over whether your entries are legitimate.If all it takes for you to be able to legitimately log your King Air time is a high altitude and complex endorsement, then just go out and go get the required endorsements with a CFI in a C210 or similar before you go do your squawk and talk in the King Air.

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Why doesn't he just have the ATP endorse his logbook that he was receiving training in the King Air towards his high altitude and complex aircraft endorsements? This way the time he logs in his logbook is justified. From the way I read his original post, he just wants to build time.....not act as PIC, which he can't do in this case.John M

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There is no such thing as a turbine endorsement. Just type ratings for aircraft over 12,500 lbs, a true jet, or an airframe that has been declared in need of special training by the administrator.

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