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Dark Moment

How would you redesign the world's finest aircraft?

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Well, my teaser title is not quite my question, but it's relevant.I write this note on behalf of our "think-tank" at MAAM-SIM. OK, that's the same bunch of volunteers that do everything else, but let's pretend we have brains too.To date, MAAM-SIM has produced the Mitchell B-25, Douglas R4D-6/DC-3A and Grumman TBM/TBF Avenger. All of these work in FS2004, and the first two have been upgraded for FSX. The Avenger will be, presently.There is a difference, however, between upgrading an FS2004 model for FSX and producing a model that is specifically designed for FSX.There is little doubt in our minds (what's left of them... thinking hurts) here at MAAM-SIM that the main reason for the group's established reputation has been the progressive development of the best DC-3 model for flightsim; from FS2000 on. Those of you who have supported MAAM over the years will be more than glad to hear, I think, that the DC-3 is top of our list for an all-singing, all-dancing FSX model. Albeit that we have other plans also (a P-61 in due course being an obvious development) our current priority is to get working on a new model of the DC-3 that can take advantage of everything the newest sim has to offer. Despite the presence of a default DC-3 in the last two versions of the sim, we continue to think this progressive development important and worthwhile. If anything, it seems that the default version steers interested parties toward our more complex product, so is to the museum's advantage.As more and more of you are using FSX now, I trust that this is good news. Importantly - and this is the reason for this thread - now is YOUR chance to give us input into what you would like to see in any next generation of DC-3s from MAAM-SIM. Will you post here with your ideas? I've asked the same question over at DC-3 Airways, whose members are known to be partial to the Gooney; between you all, we should achieve some quality input, I trust!As food for thought, we'll most likely consider a couple of different panel variations, for a start, and not limit the product to the R4D panel... although that will be there, of course. No promises of anything too radically different, as varying designs and layouts have to be achieved in VC also, of course, which can be massive work in itself; but, certainly, we'll work on some variations.Textures will be more detailed than ever, as FSX allows the potential to go to 2048 texture sizes (don't worry, you'll have that new computer you promised yourself by the time we finish this bird!). We'll hope to produce a ski version, perhaps... maybe a mosquito sprayer.... specific C47A and C47B types, maybe. More animations. New sounds. Let's have your thoughts. What is missing, in the present model, for you? How would you improve things, in a perfect world? I don't guarantee for a moment that we'll be able to comply with every request or idea posted here (the mention of the words 'Basler Turbo' produces very strange reactions from Maestro Visser in Holland, for example, who is a radial nut like the rest of us!) but all comments will go into the pot and will help enormously. Thanks in advance, and we'll be interested to hear what you come up with!Don't rush your input. This is a new and major project for MAAM-SIM, so we're talking many months rather than weeks before you'll see a finished product. If MS throw any more curved balls at us in the meantime, we'll be ready for them, hopefully! Mark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cx.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/avsimlogo.jpg[/a]

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I'd love to see some panel options, particularly in a clickable VC only format. My interest is mostly in early DC-3 airline service, both pre and post war. Be great to see period panel options to fit the various time periods the airplane has flown in.Along the same vein, it would be great if some version of the Radio Range program could be implemented in FSX. So great to fly this plane by dah dit and di dah in FS9 and it would be really nice to be able to do the same with the wonderful scenery in FSX.On the modern end, it might be pretty cool to have two or three PT-6A's providing the power. Have seen a few of those planes in RL and they're pretty impressive.That said, just to have the MAAM DC-3 with an FSX model will be plenty to keep me happy. Thanks guys.cheers,steve

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The Dak is coming to FSX? :9As someone who paints, may I please make a reminder? I don't know if you guys at MAAM have noticed, but a fair few FSX models go awfully wrong because the modellers forgot basic lessons in the physics of light and shade. When doing bumpmaps, remember that these do not create "real" raised or sunken parts on the model skin, so they are not affected by the sim sunlight. In other words, rivet shadows won't move with the incident sunlight.Bumpmaps create pseudo lighting and shading to simulate these rivets, ripples, bumps and dents. So when you make a bumpmap, you tell the paint program to create an elevation map with "light" shining on the texture from one fixed angle. Usually modellers use "high and slightly from the nose"BUT if any of the textures are mirrored on the texture sheets (for instance two fuselage sides - one right-side up, the other mirrored - then the bumps on the "wrong" side end up looking like dents. All I ask is that you check the lighting directions on the basic bump textures... Painters have been getting this wrong since the first FSX addon plane - despite MS leading the way by getting it right.Otherwise - bring on the FSX planes at last... PLEASE :-badteethOh, and even though they may not be thought necessary - don't forget or leave out speculars. You can bet that a painter somewhere - me :-bigangel - will find a use for "modern" paint effects on historical planes...

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If I were redesigning the R4D-6....1. I would definately include the XC-47C amphib version. I've probably flown that more than any other DC-3 to date. Sure the real one probably flew like a stuck pig, but it's very versitile.2. I'd look at doing the C-117.3. The Basler turbo conversion has been requested more than any other DC-3 version. I'd have to look at that one too.4. Build a frame-rate friendly version for AI use that uses the same textures as the flyable airplane for maximized utilization of textures.Thanks for considering!

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I have all three MAAM products. I also only have FS9 and do not have FSX, so my comments are strictly from my imagination.If and when I do acquire FSX, and if it were possible, these are a few additional things I think are possible.The first would be additional animations. Both the Avenger and Mitchell have turrets, which could be animated to rotate. Also, they could have actual bombs for dropping. In the case of the Avenger it would mean adding it as an option like the torpedo. Another consideration is an internal fuel tank, which can be jettisoned.While we're at it, it would be nice to have some crew or passengers for all three. Specifically, it would be nice to pan around from the VC and see the copilot in the Mitchell or DC3, or even passengers with the DC3. Externally, a gunner would be nice for the Avenger.Another thing to consider would be more accurate load configurations whereby the actual weight for passengers, freight or armament can be considered to make the flight more realistic.With the Mitchell the forward 2D view is needed for the solid nose version. With the Avenger there could be a model without the turret or any guns. This would also be available as a fire suppression version.--WH

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As long as you are making different panels, how about a modern IFR one? Analogue of course, but with HSI, DME, three axis modern autopilot... like the DC-3 addon panel, but included.How about a yoke that disapears and reapears with a mouseclick regardless of model?As long as it is fully shareable, I will buy the FSX version like I did the FS9.Best Regards, Donald T. :-waveFLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.

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>As long as you are making different panels, how about a>modern IFR one? Analogue of course, but with HSI, DME, three>axis modern autopilot... like the DC-3 addon panel, but>included.>>How about a yoke that disapears and reapears with a mouseclick>regardless of model?>>As long as it is fully shareable, I will buy the FSX version>like I did the FS9.>>Best Regards, Donald T. :-wave>>>FLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be>wrong.Like this one?http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/WarHorse47/PICT1617.jpghttp://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/WarHorse47/PICT1618.jpg--WH

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Cool panel. Swap the DG for an HSI and that's about it...:-)Donald T.

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OK, boys. I love the Turkey, too, but let's get back on topic. This thread is meant to help us get ideas for the new Douglas, only. :-)We really will be incorporating some of these ideas in the new DC-3, so it's not just a "pie in the sky" exercise.Bill RambowMAAM-SIM http://www.fssupport.com/maam/hgrsm_blkani.gif

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Ok, back to the DC3, but this also applies to the B25. Take advantage of the FSX camera views by providing more interior detail. In the DC3 you can put a camera in the radio compartment and pan around. You can also put one back in the cabin and look around, or look out the windows at the engines. In the B25 you can put a camera in the nose and have a neat forward view, plus you can look all around the bombardier compartment. This only works if the detail is included in the model. It's like having more virtual cockpits. It would be great to ride in the tail of the B25 or stand at one of the side gunner positions.

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Hi Folks, I'm propably one of the biggest Fans of the DC3/C47 and I loved this gooney bird and flew every day, when I used the FS9.:)When I changed to FSX, I was so sad, that I couldn't fly her without a couple of problems. :(I miss this bird so much and every time, when I see or only hear our C47A flying over Berlin, I'm fixed on it and just want to fly with her in FS...:-halo As a big fan, it would be so cool, if the new Duggy would have:- a fluently & completely clickable VC, with every important switches, you can use in the FSX, like the 2D-Panel from the FS9-DC3- various Types, like Passenger, Cargo (!!!;)), Amphibian, Ski, Extinguisher- may be some different variations with windows or without windows- effects, like an blown up engine, when to much stressed or fuel-dump- very decent smoke-effects, like fumes- openable doors and windows in the cockpit- moveable parts of the pilot's seats- a version with the bigger airducts, like the C47A has- animated parts of the radial-engines- different outside and inside sounds, when opened the cockpit-windowThank you for reading and spending attention!;)With best regards from BerlinPS: I'd be sooo glad and thankfull, if I could be a member of the beta-testers...:-bigangel

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I'd like to second Hans post here. All he mentioned would be great! I never post much on forums but as I saw this thread and about the greatest and coolest add-on aircraft ever and the possibility to make suggestions for the new FSX version I couldn't resist...Like Hans said...-but I could trade off some minor additions like moving armrests on the pilot chair for a fully clickable VC maybe in TWO versions: the old one and some "newer/updated" IFR panel VC...freely chooseable and not dependant of Passenger or Cargo Version...-by the way openable Cockpit windows would be very nice ;) and like somebody already mentioned some different camera postions are a great idea.-what about some ground stuff like chocks or a functional ground power supply unit? With the ability to extend battery lifetime so that one can go through all the checklist and do some flight planning without running engines.....But as you see all in all some subtle and cosmetic changes to an already great (in FS9) aircraft add-on.soulbrotha

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Some of these may be doable, some may not be... But, here goes...More systems modelled, like the ones on the upper panel in the VC that are painted on (is that an APU switch, or am I imagining things? --I haven't used FS in awhile..)Visible flaps from the interior cabin in VC.Lower-resting tailwheel so it looks like the tail has some weight to it...Perhaps consult with and work with the author of the freeware DC-3C available here at Avsim (I think) that has the extensive failure modelling built-in... (Don't have access to my flightsim or the original archive of this aircraft so I can't actually post the name right now..) Would have to have an option to turn them off completely (so that there's zero need to follow proper operating procedures for those that don't want it), and have various settings on the slider to increase the difficulty. If he's willing to contribute the failure modelling, of course... :( Otherwise, perhaps you could do your own failure modelling to encourage "proper" operating procedures as an optional feature...Is it even possible to make the props rotate at the correct speed when the starter is cranking? Or is FS hard-coded to make the props rotate at 400+ RPM?I know the real R4D doesn't have strobes, but if you keep the interior cabin light modelled, could that be assigned to a different unused light source (wing inspection light, perhaps) so that it can be retrofitted with strobes if we like? (also would negate having to operate the interior cabin lights in the same manner as the strobe lights to satisfy FS Flightkeeper (and other similar tools that penalize for improper strobe light usage) without having to turn that option off and lose that option for other aircraft..)Openable cockpit window would be nice, get some fresh air while on the ground... :)Can't think of anything else...

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StoneC0ld's and soulbrotha's mentioned features would be really cool, too!Some weeks ago, A2A Simulations published their new B337 Stratocruiser! It's amazing, really...Would it be possible, to build in some features from the B337 into the new DC3?I'm thinking about the Sounds while roling, braking and touching the runway!Also interesting is the Icing of the cockpit-windows, if the Air-Fan-System is not turned on!The lights of the B337 seem to be very realistic and have special shiny look. If I get more suggestions, I'll be back! :)The DC3 has to be the best aircraft in FSX again! ;)Have a nice day,best regardsEDIT: I forgot the realism-features! If you have opened the cowl-flaps with too much speed, they'll brake and you'll get in trouble! The same thing happens with the landing-flaps.If you stress the engines too much, they'll blow up and burn, so you've to activate the distinguisher.

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I agree with the previous suggestions concerning sound effects: the more the better! I still have only your FS-9 version, and think it's truly superb -- but here's the sort of thing that could lure me into the dreaded world of FSX:Can you include the sounds of creaking and popping when the airframe flexes in stormy weather turbulence, or upon tire impact when landing?Can you add some hydraulic whine and brake squeal when taxiing?Could you have a voice call-out for checklist items like you do for "gear down and locked" in the FS-9 version -- at least for several of the most important items: gear, flaps, airspeed, altitude, etc?Could you add a sound for the cabin door being closed & secured, or maybe a stewardess voice call-out for this action?When the gear retracts could there be a sound as it seats in the fully-retracted position?Thanks for any consideration you can give the above. You guys do a truly fantastic job!

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Can not wait for this bird!!As mentioned above, something similar to the complexity of the A2A B377 would be great - true engine management, extended/dynamic engine wear/life, etc...Also, I have been flying the Carenado Mooney and Cessna206 very much lately. I love the way the panels are set up. Each instrument can be opened in a separate window and moved to a second monitor. Also, a another click renders the instruments vital information as a digital readout.

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[Many of the featyres of the B377 mentioned by the previous poster are the result of the Accusim addon.Would MAAM consider collaborating with A2A... being responsible for model and .air file while A2A does what they do best... bringing radial systems to life???Robert Alleyquote name=StoneC0ld' date='Aug 28 2008, 09:39 AM' post='1289230]Some of these may be doable, some may not be... But, here goes... More systems modelled, like the ones on the upper panel in the VC that are painted on (is that an APU switch, or am I imagining things? --I haven't used FS in awhile..) Visible flaps from the interior cabin in VC. Lower-resting tailwheel so it looks like the tail has some weight to it... Perhaps consult with and work with the author of the freeware DC-3C available here at Avsim (I think) that has the extensive failure modelling built-in... (Don't have access to my flightsim or the original archive of this aircraft so I can't actually post the name right now..) Would have to have an option to turn them off completely (so that there's zero need to follow proper operating procedures for those that don't want it), and have various settings on the slider to increase the difficulty. If he's willing to contribute the failure modelling, of course... :( Otherwise, perhaps you could do your own failure modelling to encourage "proper" operating procedures as an optional feature... Is it even possible to make the props rotate at the correct speed when the starter is cranking? Or is FS hard-coded to make the props rotate at 400+ RPM? I know the real R4D doesn't have strobes, but if you keep the interior cabin light modelled, could that be assigned to a different unused light source (wing inspection light, perhaps) so that it can be retrofitted with strobes if we like? (also would negate having to operate the interior cabin lights in the same manner as the strobe lights to satisfy FS Flightkeeper (and other similar tools that penalize for improper strobe light usage) without having to turn that option off and lose that option for other aircraft..) Openable cockpit window would be nice, get some fresh air while on the ground... :) Can't think of anything else...

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Hello and thanks to everyone on the MAAM team for everything you've done at Spaatz and with the flight-sim community!I'll keep this short as possible.... my wish-list for a FSX version of the C47/DC3 would include:* Fully click-able VC* More aircraft systems modeled with built-in failures (hydraulics, etc)* The ability to have multiple models with/without interiors+extra details so we could tailor the aircraft to our hardware's capabilities (sigh....)... this would be my wish-list for a otherwise excellent aircraft!Keep up the great work, and looking forward in meeting the team at KRDG!Aris DCA1443Athens, Greece

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I really would like a fully functional VC and proper damage modelling.I hope you'd consider approaching A2A simulations and have a talk with them about realism modelling. Maybe a joint developement? They're a commercial company though, but they're damned good at what they do. Maybe they could produce a realism module to connect to your DC3? I'd presume you'd have to talk to them about some kind of SDK.Also

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remember me?.....the windows .....the windows...... :( ...thank God you're doing this ...i've been waiting soooo long...make it so real looking, that one would expect it to fly out of the monitor.....................cheers, and blessings!!!.......vic

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How about a Super DC-3 with the PW R1830-90C round engines. I sure would like a model of that.Harry

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this potentially knockout contribution to the flightsim experience, may be made manifest in:aug09-dec09?jan10-apr 10?may10-aur10?sept10-dec10?jan11-xxxx?it just would be nice to be able to prepare myself ........something to look forward to ...another reason to keep on living........but an open window, a maybe, an if, a some time in the future, is toooo discouraging....and kinda depressing....but if you're hands are tied...can't say i didn't tried..... :( ..................................................cheers, and best wishes................................

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This topic is pretty old so I don't know if you're still looking for input, but I would love to see a Cyclone powered DC-3. There are already paints out there for Cyclone powered DC-3s like the Corsair or the KNILM version, but obviously they are applied to a P&W powered DC-3. I haven't thoroughly researched it but I don't think the airframe is any different except for the engine nacelles obviously. The FDE would have to be modified as well as some of the gauges, but none of that seems inordinately difficult (I'm not a modeler though). Give it a thought.

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