>Hopefully, once the FSX DX10 upgrade is released Vista/FSX>will be... really awesome!>-------------------------------------------------------------------->>One interesting development might occur. If most game>enthusiasts will not be tempted to buy Vista MERELY to get>DX10...then video card manufacturers will THEN apply pressure>on MS to bring DX10 to stalwart XP gaming enthusiasts. They>won't overlook the XP market base to hype their DX10 parts>to!>>I really believe that this will happen. People just have to>hunker down and sort of 'call a strike' upon Vista.>>Mitch R.>>I'm sorry Mitch, but you're dreaming. MS will stop supporting XP in 2009. Period, end of story, it will be over. So until 2009 I'm keeping XP because I don't want the expense ($200????) headaches (will that program work, or wont it? it decides what "unwanted" software is? what if zonealarm and pc cillin are "unwated" because "defeneder" is installed. "volume validaton?" so, I have to let MS see what my hard drives ar formatted as and what's on them? stronger DRM? so I can't download my porn and burn them to DVD so I can watch them on TV? no, thanks

THank you Charlie this is what I've been trying to explain to people-the "upgrade" isn't worth the cost and heartache. I have nothing against Vista in itself; if one is getting a brand new system, fine, that's the OS that comes on it. But an "upgrade" will be rolling the dice for so many people unnecessarily. Many system, if they're newer, might work OK, but many systems won't. I know a lot of simmers are anxious becuase of "DX10" but, remember we use our computers for more than FSX. (Don't we? LOL). It's just not worth the $200 or $300 or the probable heartache involved. Don't do it!

This was one of the more interesting Vista threads, but, after thinking it over again (getting a little tempted by the side bar), I've decided I'm still going to wait. Want to know why?BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO DANG MUCH! If it was $89, I might pop it in just out of curiosity, then wipe and restore if I don't like it. But $200 to $300? That's getting to close to a paycheck, no thanks

You're right it is kind of pricey. Maybe you can get some hardware and get an OEM license. Meanwhile, it appears there is a work around that allows installing the uprade version in a clean install.Anandtech did some benching, and found in a DX9 game that was CPU bound, vista x86 was actually slightly faster than XP. in that situation a 7900GS performed about as well as an 8800GTS. Aside from looking forward to DX10, maybe you could save a few bucks on the graphics card, through in an extra couple Gb of RAM, and have a better set up with vista than with xp.It isn't clear how the super fetch might help with texture loading from disk. Most of the comments seem to be about app launching (not that that isn't something FSX couldn't use a little help with :( ).scott s..

>You're right it is kind of pricey. Maybe you can get some>hardware and get an OEM license. Meanwhile, it appears there>is a work around that allows installing the uprade version in>a clean install.>>Anandtech did some benching, and found in a DX9 game that was>CPU bound, vista x86 was actually slightly faster than XP. in>that situation a 7900GS performed about as well as an 8800GTS.> Aside from looking forward to DX10, maybe you could save a>few bucks on the graphics card, through in an extra couple Gb>of RAM, and have a better set up with vista than with xp.>>It isn't clear how the super fetch might help with texture>loading from disk. Most of the comments seem to be about app>launching (not that that isn't something FSX couldn't use a>little help with :( ).>>scott s.>.> Hi ScottAnd, that's all cool, too, but-I still need to know before spending that money, and the time-will ALL my programs still work? My security programs? (probably not) Mainsream apps (maybe most of them)-my games? (maybe some)? I just don't feel like dealing with all that. On a new, blank system, fine, as an "upgrade," no way.I'd rather take that $200 and buy some multi engine flight time ;)

The sad fact of the matter is that whatever people say, it is us gamers (or simmers if you like) along with buyers of new pcs that will drive vista forward. When the dx10 patch comes out for FSX, believe me, everyone will be climbing on board the vista train. Likewise, when other dx10 games like Crysis appear, the massed hordes will all switch if they havent already done so.There is no way MS will ever release dx10 for XP.

I hope everyone does at least see why the lack of a choice is NOT a good thing?Having to buy Vista because you need DX10 to run FSX DX10 version when there is no technical reason DX10 can't be available for XP.Is having to buy virus protection software a good thing? The OS should come out of the box secure -- hence the big price tag. I don't need or have virus protection on my MacPro. I also don't get popups (IE 7 popup blockers just doesn't work in 80% of the cases) on my MacPro. I don't have annoying reminders living in a SysTray like I do in XP, etc. etc. But again, you manipulate enough people into thinking this is how "it should be" because they've never experienced anything else.But based on the actual voting population is the US, I have come to the conclusion that most people really don't care and don't want the choice -- tell me what to do Uncle Sam (or Big Brother Microsoft) seems to work for most. Vista is being shipped with New PC's - take or...just take it.

>I hope everyone does at least see why the lack of a choice is>NOT a good thing?>>Having to buy Vista because you need DX10 to run FSX DX10>version when there is no technical reason DX10 can't be>available for XP.>>Is having to buy virus protection software a good thing? The>OS should come out of the box secure -- hence the big price>tag. >>I don't need or have virus protection on my MacPro. I also>don't get popups (IE 7 popup blockers just doesn't work in 80%>of the cases) on my MacPro. I don't have annoying reminders>living in a SysTray like I do in XP, etc. etc. But again, you>manipulate enough people into thinking this is how "it should>be" because they've never experienced anything else.>>But based on the actual voting population is the US, I have>come to the conclusion that most people really don't care and>don't want the choice -- tell me what to do Uncle Sam (or Big>Brother Microsoft) seems to work for most. >>Vista is being shipped with New PC's - take or...just take>it.>>Does MacPro run FSX and if it does how good? Could you post some screenshots please? Then finally we would say that we HAVE a choice to make-- It is MACPRO!!!!EDIT -- Look what I found: http://www.apple.com/getamac/macosx.htmldito

Yes it runs FSX just fine using Boot Camp -- you're limited to using ATI X1900XT as the best GPU for it -- you can order a MacPro with a X1900XT pre-installed -- if you're into tweaking you can get an ATI X1950XTX or nVidia's 8800GTX to work. Boot camp is just like any dual boot PC -- you're running Windows XP or Vista with NO emulation at full speed with all the same limitations that Windows provides.Be warned: if you run Windows this way you'll be subject to all the same security holes cause OSX ain't there to protect you.If you want to run Windows from within OSX, then you will need Parallels or some other emulation software (the new Leopard due in April will have this ability built it) -- this works well for MS Office apps and traditional 2D apps, but doesn't work well for gaming.So yes, you have the choice in one complete package. I do a lot of development work from a single MacPro for both *nix/OSX and WinXP/Vista. Being able to move between OS's is very important for my work and it also provides one with a real perspective of the two major OS camps.rob.

>Yes it runs FSX just fine using Boot Camp -- you're limited>to using ATI X1900XT as the best GPU for it -- you can order a>MacPro with a X1900XT pre-installed -- if you're into tweaking>you can get an ATI X1950XTX or nVidia's 8800GTX to work. Boot>camp is just like any dual boot PC -- you're running Windows>XP or Vista with NO emulation at full speed with all the same>limitations that Windows provides.>>Be warned: if you run Windows this way you'll be subject to>all the same security holes cause OSX ain't there to protect>you.>>If you want to run Windows from within OSX, then you will need>Parallels or some other emulation software (the new Leopard>due in April will have this ability built it) -- this works>well for MS Office apps and traditional 2D apps, but doesn't>work well for gaming.>>So yes, you have the choice in one complete package. I do a>lot of development work from a single MacPro for both *nix/OSX>and WinXP/Vista. Being able to move between OS's is very>important for my work and it also provides one with a real>perspective of the two major OS camps.>>rob.Rob,Thanks for your insight.As I understand, you can run FSX within the OSX, right? But what about DX10. Will the Mac version due in Spring take it or it doesn't need it for having something better? And, the tweaks for a better card are that difficult to implement on MacPro?dito

Think I'm not being clear. When one dual boots to an OS of choice, you run that OS as is just the same as you would on any other PC. You download the latest drivers for WinXP or Vista just as you do now. You can go to ATI's web site and get the latest DX10 drivers when you're running under Vista.You can dual boot to Vista or WinXP or OSX on a MacPro (hold down Alt key while booting and you'll be presented with a choice of OS). If you install Vista under dual boot then you get everything that is Vista including DX10. You don't need to wait for Leopard to be able to do this now. When Leopard is released in April, it will just make the dual boot process even easier (it is already pretty simple) and will also include the ability to run Windows (XP or Vista) from within Leopard.What you will get in your MacPro is:1. Ability to playing games in Vista (DX10) or WinXP (DX9) in dual boot2. Ability to do all other Microsoft 2D apps directly in OSX3. Ability to do all OSX apps (Universal Binary or otherwise)4. The quietest and most well design PC on the planet But you will need to buy a version of Microsoft Vista or WinXP to be able to do this. Vista ain't cheap. OSX is obviously pre-installed on a MacPro. The Leopard upgrade will be considerably less costly than Vista upgrade.But go to a Mac/Apple store, they actually have real knowledgeable humans that will show you how it works on a real MacPro. You'll find a VERY different retail experience in Apple stores -- but you can also go to BestBuy as they now sell Mac's and have 2-3 Apple reps there to answer questions (not sure if they can arrange a demo for dual boot in BestBuy, but they might -- for sure Mac/Apple store will arrange a demo for you).Rob.

>Think I'm not being clear. When one dual boots to an OS of>choice, you run that OS as is just the same as you would on>any other PC. You download the latest drivers for WinXP or>Vista just as you do now. You can go to ATI's web site and>get the latest DX10 drivers when you're running under Vista.>>You can dual boot to Vista or WinXP or OSX on a MacPro (hold>down Alt key while booting and you'll be presented with a>choice of OS). If you install Vista under dual boot then you>get everything that is Vista including DX10. You don't need>to wait for Leopard to be able to do this now. When Leopard>is released in April, it will just make the dual boot process>even easier (it is already pretty simple) and will also>include the ability to run Windows (XP or Vista) from within>Leopard.>>What you will get in your MacPro is:>>1. Ability to playing games in Vista (DX10) or WinXP (DX9) in>dual boot>2. Ability to do all other Microsoft 2D apps directly in OSX>3. Ability to do all OSX apps (Universal Binary or>otherwise)>4. The quietest and most well design PC on the planet >>But you will need to buy a version of Microsoft Vista or WinXP>to be able to do this. Vista ain't cheap. OSX is obviously>pre-installed on a MacPro. The Leopard upgrade will be>considerably less costly than Vista upgrade.>>But go to a Mac/Apple store, they actually have real>knowledgeable humans that will show you how it works on a real>MacPro. You'll find a VERY different retail experience in>Apple stores -- but you can also go to BestBuy as they now>sell Mac's and have 2-3 Apple reps there to answer questions>(not sure if they can arrange a demo for dual boot in BestBuy,>but they might -- for sure Mac/Apple store will arrange a demo>for you).>>Rob.Hmmm... That sounds very good and I am lokking forward to diving in. As a matter of fact I am amazed at what discovered this morning about what MacPro is capable of doing:http://www.apple.com/getamac/drivers.htmlBut I wonder the cost with all those yammy features... However, the different features as described seem to be the ONLY BEST way to go. Soon I'll be able to say, "MS computers, good-bye!!!"dito

I don't want to see Microsoft go bye bye as that would probably turn Apple into what Microsoft has become -- afterall it is ultimately the best place for a company to be in -- the ability to dictate and leverage themselves without fear. Competition drives innovation and doesn't permit any single company to dictate what is best for you. It doesn't make life "easy" for those companies either, they have to work hard and efficient and produce quality. Competition also keeps prices in check (aka you will not see any $400 OS when the competition's top version is $79).Competition would have forced Microsoft to provide a DX10 version for WinXP because they would NOT want to lose customers if the competition has a compariable new OpenGL version that didn't require an OS upgrade (aka OSX).The current situation with Microsoft is great for Microsoft, but not for the consumer. Apple is the 4th largest computer hardware company in the world, and it is good to see their computer sales are steadily going up by significant amount (31% last quarter) - iPOD kept them alive, Intel is helping them thrive.Try before you buy and lets us know of your experience.Rob.

>I don't want to see Microsoft go bye bye as that would>probably turn Apple into what Microsoft has become -- afterall>it is ultimately the best place for a company to be in -- the>ability to dictate and leverage themselves without fear. >>Competition drives innovation and doesn't permit any single>company to dictate what is best for you. It doesn't make life>"easy" for those companies either, they have to work hard and>efficient and produce quality. Competition also keeps prices>in check (aka you will not see any $400 OS when the>competition's top version is $79).>>Competition would have forced Microsoft to provide a DX10>version for WinXP because they would NOT want to lose>customers if the competition has a compariable new OpenGL>version that didn't require an OS upgrade (aka OSX).>>The current situation with Microsoft is great for Microsoft,>but not for the consumer. Apple is the 4th largest computer>hardware company in the world, and it is good to see their>computer sales are steadily going up by significant amount>(31% last quarter) - iPOD kept them alive, Intel is helping>them thrive.>>Try before you buy and lets us know of your experience.>>Rob.>I fully agree with what you said. But as I am concerned, if what I am reading about MacPro is true (and why shouldn't?), then I will switch and a twinkling of an eye (provided the money is there to do so)!"Try before you buy and lets us know of your experience."How can go about getting a demo to try it out? I'm truly looking forward to an awesome FSX experince and doing all those other stuff I've been putting off for a while but that finally MAC has already made it into an easy ride through the OSX.dito

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/i...AOSA10000022132Hopefully you live in one of these countries. Go to the store nearest you and they'll set you up with a Demo -- not sure they'll be able to show you FSX running under it (you'll have to work that out with your Apple sales person and obviously use your own copy of FSX).Rob.