I've had several discussions on this and other forums over the apparent poor performance of my ATI 3870X2 in heavy cloud compared to the nVidia 8800 cards.I'm in discussion with AMD support as to why the 3870X2 - their reference card - performas so poorly compared to the nVidias but as to whether the drivers can be improved is anyone's guess.So I've been looking at reviews on TomsHardware of the nVidia 9800GTX and 9800GX2 cards. The latter is a dual-GPU chip card with 1Gb of memory. Similar to my 3870X2. Their cheaper card is a revamped 8800 with 512Mb of memory.You'd think the 9800GX2 would be a clear winner but take a look at these two reviews and you might be surprised.www.tomshardware.co.uk/nvidia-geforce-9800gtx,review-30590-4.htmlwww.tomshardware.co.uk/nvidia-geforce-9800-gx2,review-30511-6.htmlLook at the 1920*1200 performance. Both are clearly faster than my 3870X2 if the reviews are to be belived and there appears to be minimal hit for AA and AF. It has been suggested in other discussions that THW may not be entirely neutral but they are the only site that includes FSX in their selected games.Whilst the 9800GTX looks the better card for pure speed I'm wondering if the 512Mb of nemory may be a disadvantage. But it is far cheaper than the extortionately priced GX2 and also the 8800 GTX/Ultra which is very difficult to find now.Anyone care to comment?

All of those 9-series cards, and the 3870/3870x2...have a 256-bit memory interface. The 8800GTX has a 384-bit memory interface.That is the show-stopper for FSX.And that's why it is my belief that an elderly 8800GTX with 768mb of memory is still the best FS card there is. There are things the 3870's do better (like IQ), there are things the 9-series may do better, but overall I'd want an 8800GTX.Well, that's what I ended up getting, and for those reasons. 384-bit mem interface, 768 mem on a single gpu solution. You're right, 8800GTX's are hard to come by. I figured I better grab one now, while the grabbing is good. And $400 vs. $600 (6 months ago) is not bad.I think simpler works better with FSX--no SLI, no Crossfire, no RAID, no complex partitioning schemes, no SCSI, no multi-boots, no odd pagefile configs, no nothing. It likes simple but powerful software and hardware arrangements.RhettE8500, Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64

Hi Rhett,<>Then why is that not born out with the fps? I'm not doubting you but if the 3870X2 and 9800GTX are both 256-bit then they should be capable of identical performance. And if it's a show stopper for FSX that must be the case for other games like Crysis for example.I've found a retailer who has stocks of the 8800GTX but there are huge variations in the price. An XPertVision costs a massive 366UKP (700+USD) but an Asus Extreme can be had for 185UKP (350USD). I don't understand why some are so much more expensive. There aren't any other variations are there? They both have the same main spec as far as I csn see.I agree with you that FSX can't take advantage of CrossFire, SLI etc but the amount of memory is important. I wouldn't be too happy with only 512 but 768 seems fine.Did you find this huge variation in price too? For less than 200 pounds the Asus is tempting but I need to be sure it doesn't have any hidden dangers. I would be an idiot making a mistake again.Cheers,

Hi Ray,I recently bought the 9800GTX because I was in the market. I came to all the same conclusions as both you and Rhett; but money was a factor for the moment; therfor I did not opt for the much more exensive x2 models. But I did want to move from the G80 to a G92 for personal reasons. After two weeks, the 9800GTX performs maybe just a bit better than my 8800GTS(G80)(640MB) card, which has 320 bit pipes.There are now hints to an all-out GPU war this summer. Hopefully this will only benefit us, then consumers.http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new...r-bring-gpu-war

Hi Al,It's interesting to note that the GTS without AA/AF performs identically to the GTX at 1680*1050 but at 1920*1200 the extra beef of the GTX starts to show when AA/AF is applied. I don't thin any of us would run FSX without AA/AF so those lower numbers are the ones to concentrate on.Reading that report it could be good news or it could be horrendous news depending on whether you've just bought the latest and greatest card or not! :-eek There'll alays be something faster (and more expensive) just around the corner but the 8800GTX does seem to be a classic as far as FS is concerned (just like FS9! :-hah)I can't see the 8800GTX being around for much longer especially at those low prices. They'll either be snapped up or will be shipped back to the suppliers to make way for the new models.I'll have a think over the next couple of days as to whether to go for a 8800GTX or not. I've spent plenty recently but if the 3870X2 is holding back performance in an otherwise excellent system it would be folly to stick with it.For many games it's an excellent card and I should be able to sell for around the price I pay for the 8800GTX. I think I've just persuaded myself! :-lol

In FSX changes come slow but cover a vast area, unlike fast paced shooters, where changes happen very fast over a small area.I think of it as,FSX needs a big pipe and slower moving water is fine.Shooters can use a smaller pipe but need the water blasting out.What does that mean... the newer 256 bit cards just are not the best for FSX, it does not matter if they have 2 GPUs or how fast the triangle fill rate is.Grab a 384bit 8800GTX 768MB, 8800 Ultra or a the 320bit 8800GTS 640 or 640 SSC,as opposed to the 256bit 8800GT, 8800GTS 512mb and 9800 cards.

Undertood, but while shopping online here in the U.S. last month, I can and did pickup a 9800GTX for $279 and if I can find a 8800GTX/Ultra it was more than $400.Bigger pipes = more coin; when its' the CPU that FS so much depends on, is the GPU really worth another $150 to $300 bucks? I understand it will help, but what is the bang for the buck, as the saying goes.

I agree which your recommendations but if a 256-bit bus is a limiting factor how come the 9800GXT outperforms a 8800Ultra albeit by a small margin? In reality the 9800GTX should perform worse than my 3870X2 which has the same bus size but a faster GPU.It just goes to show how confusing it can be trying to find the best card for FSX. There should be a sticky post on this forum with this kind of helpful advice.Thanks,

>All of those 9-series cards, and the 3870/3870x2...have a>256-bit memory interface. The 8800GTX has a 384-bit memory>interface.>Hi guys I am not sure if the above statement is valid-take a look at the link and click on 'technical specifications'(You can choose to have a look at any card in the graphic card section at the top).http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo...roductID=789608It seems to claim 512 bit memory for hd 3870 x2,and 9800 gx2 - or am I confused.I am also in the market for a graphic card and the Tom's review seems to be in favour of the nvidia 8800gtx ultra considering the price of the 9800 2gx.http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia...iew,1792-6.htmlQas

512MB of memory for each on-board GPU, I'm sure... 1GB total.

yeah strange huh? I ordered a 9800GTX from newegg and a 750i motherboard and will be doing the fsx benchmark found on avsim along with the 8800gt and the 3870. I'm interested to find out how much of a difference PCI-E 2.0 makes. Anyone want to lend me an ultra? I'll test that one too ;)Based off of Tom's benchmarks' averages the 9800gtx has a performance increase of 4.2% over the 8800gtx (and the gtx is more expensive). The ultra wins with a 5.4% increase at a price of $230 extra.Yeah, I have no clue as to why the 9800gtx beats the 8800gtx in averages though and why it delivers the most fps for fsx. Does the shader clock or texture fill rate have anything to do with it?

>Hi Rhett,>><256-bit memory interface. The 8800GTX has a 384-bit memory>interface.>>>>Then why is that not born out with the fps? Because fps in our sim has more to do with core clock and cpu than mem interface. With mem interface I'm talking about things like texture fill, autogen draws, etc. Those things require lots of bandwidth, and they are things that FSX has in great amounts. This is all from the horses mouth, so-to-speak (p. taylor). No other cards have 384-bit mem interface. Plus the price fell $200 in the last couple of months--for me it was the right card at the right time.There must be a reason why new cards have 256-bit interfaces. The card makers must be determining that this is not a major player in the overall perf of the card. That's all I can figure. However, for FS, is it a non-factor? I don't know the answer to that question.>you but if the 3870X2 and 9800GTX are both 256-bit then they>should be capable of identical performance. And if it's a show>stopper for FSX that must be the case for other games like>Crysis for example.>The 3870x2 and 9800GTX should not be capable of identical performance, because they're completely different gpu's. For example, I'm sure ATI/AMD would have an explanation as to why their gpu doesn't do clouds well, but maybe they do not have an explanation. Either way, I wouldn't expect a 9800GTX's gpu to work the same as the nVidia gpu, even if everything (core clock, mem interface, vid mem, etc.) were all identical. Drivers are also another variable.>I've found a retailer who has stocks of the 8800GTX but there>are huge variations in the price. An XPertVision costs a>massive 366UKP (700+USD) but an Asus Extreme can be had for>185UKP (350USD). I don't understand why some are so much more>expensive. There aren't any other variations are there? They>both have the same main spec as far as I csn see.>In the UK, the 8800GTX's may be more scarce. Over here, I got a BFG 8800GTX for $400, which is much, much better than $600 it was a few months ago.I can't explain the price variations. Perhaps many vendors do not yet have the 9-series in stock, and therefore they price the 8800GTX on their top-tier.>I agree with you that FSX can't take advantage of CrossFire,>SLI etc but the amount of memory is important. I wouldn't be>too happy with only 512 but 768 seems fine.>>Did you find this huge variation in price too? For less than>200 pounds the Asus is tempting but I need to be sure it>doesn't have any hidden dangers. I would be an idiot making a>mistake again.>If you are referring the 3870x2 as a mistake, I would not. It is a fine card. It is possible the clouds issue is a driver problem, that will be corrected over time. I continue to be VERY impressed with the 3870 series image quality. Has ATI/AMD given you any sort of answer on the clouds issue?Besides, there are certain things about nVidia cards + drivers + FSX that I simply do not like. However, I tolerate those things.Yes, I too found a big variation in price with the 8800GTX cards. As I said, I think the reason for this variation is because it is/was top-tier hardware, and now it is on the cusp of being superceded by the 9-series. RhettE8500, Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64

>>I'll have a think over the next couple of days as to whether>to go for a 8800GTX or not. I've spent plenty recently but if>the 3870X2 is holding back performance in an otherwise>excellent system it would be folly to stick with it.>Make sure you don't have cross-installed drivers, or some other app interfering with your AA and AF. I had a problem with my 8800GTX at first, with nHancer. My frames were HALVED for some reason, and it is aproblem that I am still trying to diagnose.>For many games it's an excellent card and I should be able to>sell for around the price I pay for the 8800GTX. I think I've>just persuaded myself! :-lol heh, well persuading oneself, is always a first step :)I did some compares with the 9800GTX and 8800GTX and for me it came down to a couple of things:1) mem interface (favors 8800GTX)2) future (favors 9800GTX)2) card memory per gpu (favors 8800GTX)3) maturity of gpu/driver in FS (favors 8800GTX)4) price (favors 8800GTX)I have no doubt the 9800GTX is a screamer, and will improve over time, but it costs more than an 8800GTX, and with the 8800GTX I know I had a card that was an absolute proven performer in FS. I tend to be conservative Ray, and only buy things that I *know* other people have used successfully. It really pained me to get DDR3 and a Penryn, but so far, so good--but that's on an unproven limb for me.The 9800GTX should be a monster card and I think Al made a good choice there, too. Look at the future that card has. I suppose price should not have been a factor for me, (after all, I was spending $400, so what's another $150-$200 when you're spending $400 already?) ... this is the kind of math that gets me into trouble.RhettE8500, Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64

Did you mean the 9800 GX2? The 9800 GTX is cheaper than the 8800 GTX.

Yes 9800GX2I was comparing the one with 2x512 memory, 512 per gpuRhettE8500, Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64