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Guest shihan

Wilco/FT - Possible copyright issue?

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Take a look at this picture from Airliners.NET:http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0939055/LNow take a look at these panel shots from the Wilco/Feelthere A320:http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6145/20...09rc5.%6A%70%67http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9615/20...50ql5.%6A%70%67http://www.wilcopub.com/wilcopub_images/im...kpit6.%6A%70%67http://www.wilcopub.com/wilcopub_images/im...kpit4.%6A%70%67http://www.wilcopub.com/wilcopub_images/im...kpit8.%6A%70%67You can nearly do a pixel by pixel comparison... they are identical ( but resized ). They even left the registration in there to confirm it. The lighting exactly the same ( be it day time or night time ) Inop gauge, slightly crooked inset on the "TERR ON ND" button... etcVery suspicious. Any comments?

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When I was designing my own 737 panel, I used several shots from airliners.net. But I didn't release mine; it's strictly for my own use at home.Basically this is a useless reply :) Except to say that I can see the value in copying images from airliners.net for use in panel designs, even though I can't comment on the ethics or legality.

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>When I was designing my own 737 panel, I used several shots>from airliners.net. But I didn't release mine; it's strictly>for my own use at home.>>Basically this is a useless reply :) Except to say that I can>see the value in copying images from airliners.net for use in>panel designs, even though I can't comment on the ethics or>legality.That isn't quite as bad... these guys released commercial software. There is definately a legal issue here.

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Why would you buy this plane anyway when Airliner XP's is coming out soonish? With the modeler from flight scenery we all know it'll be brillantly modeled....and reality xp guagues? what more do I need to say...theres a lot of good reputation behind the Airliner XP A320....why not just hit Wilco where it hurts? In the wallet wait a little and buy the superior product.Dreamfleet+reality xp+flight scenery quality = :)Besides..I heard airliner xp's modeling/flight dynamics was so accurate..they modeled the passengers farts. Minus the smell thank goodness

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>Why would you buy this plane anyway when Airliner XP's is>coming out soonish? With the modeler from flight scenery we>all know it'll be brillantly modeled....and reality xp>guagues? what more do I need to say...theres a lot of good>reputation behind the Airliner XP A320....why not just hit>Wilco where it hurts? In the wallet wait a little and buy the>superior product.>>Dreamfleet+reality xp+flight scenery quality = :)>>Besides..I heard airliner xp's modeling/flight dynamics was so>accurate..they modeled the passengers farts. Minus the smell>thank goodnessAmen to that my man! :)

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You don't know what happened. Did you ever think of the possibility that "maybe" the person who took the photo got compensated, if in fact it is the actual bitmap?Tim

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>You don't know what happened. Did you ever think of the>possibility that "maybe" the person who took the photo got>compensated, if in fact it is the actual bitmap?>>TimHe's been contacted and he was not even asked permission.Sorry I forgot to mention that in the original post.

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all airbus aircraft look the same because airbus designs them that way. besides the ID numbers/letters, 99.9% of people couldn't tell one Abus from anther from inside the cockpit.feelthere had access to real aircraft during their design work. maybe Thomas Cook Airlines was the owner of the source aircraft(s)?it is common practice for FS folks to use a.net and other photo sites for 'source' material. the legalities of this are, as you say, questionable. if we get the blood sucking lawyers involved FS community would have NO repaints and NO aircraft except the FS default.real world examples with copyright: american airlines v. flighsim.com; gulfstream v. all FSing.--

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>all airbus aircraft look the same because airbus designs>them that way. besides the ID numbers/letters, 99.9% of>people couldn't tell one Abus from anther from inside the>cockpit.>>feelthere had access to real aircraft during their design>work. maybe Thomas Cook Airlines was the owner of the source>aircraft(s)?>>it is common practice for FS folks to use a.net and other>photo sites for 'source' material. the legalities of this>are, as you say, questionable. if we get the blood sucking>lawyers involved FS community would have NO repaints and NO>aircraft except the FS default.>>real world examples with copyright: american airlines v.>flighsim.com; gulfstream v. all FSing.>>-->I'm not one to typically jump on the bandwagon here for threads like this, but I'd have to agree that using said pictures for repaints and whatnot ( free distribution ) isn't a real big deal. Using a copyrighted picture directly for a panel of a payware (expensive one at that) aircraft is not just morally wrong but there's definately some legal issues.I'd say that even if they had access to that EXACT airplane, the shadows, lighting and everything else are exactly the same as in that picture. Looks fishy!

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>When I was designing my own 737 panel, I used several shots>from airliners.net. But I didn't release mine; it's strictly>for my own use at home.>>Basically this is a useless reply :) Except to say that I can>see the value in copying images from airliners.net for use in>panel designs, even though I can't comment on the ethics or>legality.That depends.If you use it for personal use, there is probably nothing wrong. If you use it for a freeware panel which is supposed to be released to the public, I would at least ask for permission. That's not only polite, but also saves you from possible legal troubles.Copyright is copyright and no matter whether some stuff is available for free, it is still copyrighted.Using it commercially w/o asking for permission is a big no-no.Even "public domain" doesn't necessarily mean: w/o any copyright. This is only true in the US, but not in many other countries where laws state that you cannot give up all your rights on something you release to the public (yes, that sounds silly, but it is true).

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Yup, the texures/photo are exactly the same. Thats really too bad that FeelThere stooped that low.

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There is no doubt that the bitmap that Feelthere is using is that picture on Airliners.net. The lighting elements are exactly the same, the aircraft number is the same, the "inoperative" placard is the same. Even if Feelthere and this chap used the same cockpit for their material, the chance that the lighting highlights would be in the exact same places would mean that one of the choices below is true:1 - The pilot took the picture and gave it to both the guy who posed the picture at Airliners.net as well as Feelthere.2 - Feelthere was able to get the pilot to fly to the exact same spot at the exact same time of day and bank the aircraft to get the light to shine in the exact same position and exact same instruments as the original photo.3 - Feelthere plagerized that photo and need to compensate the original photographer.It is clearly spelled out at Airliners.net: ..."You may not use these photos on any web page, commercial or non-commercial, for profit or non-profit, without written permission from the photographer. You may however link to the photos in the manner described below..."I hope that Feelthere didn't do that, but if they did, me thinks that the guy who took a nice photo and posted it innocently on Airliners.net is entitled to damages.And IF Feelthere did that then in the same breath talk about software pircacy issues, it would indeed be ironic and hypocritical.But let's not jump the gun and let's see what happens. Accusations of this type have serious reprocussions for all. Feelthere should be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. The guy at Airliners.net is a professional photographer so I am sure he can tell.EDIT: I've also emailed the original owner of the picture to get to the bottom of this.

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You have got to be kidding.Are the other folks so worried about the Feel There aircraft preempting their sales?The extreme number of posts on this forum is nothing but a commercial product "mine is better than yours" series of advertisements.If you want to do a pixel by pixel comparison - why are you using screen shots rather then the actual texture from the aircraft.Then after you have compared all 1,048,576 pixels - post real comparison photos.BTW - speaking from experience I'd recommend you not bother hiring an intellectual property lawyer. He'll just take your money and tell you neither copyright is legal / enforcable.

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Our very own Paris Hilton without panties scandal. Who would have thought flightsims could get this entertaining.Looks like a fight is brewing over this at the feelthere.com forums and there have only been three posts.I, for one, look forward to rumour, gossip, and inuendo with a Judge Judy Grand Finale. Maybe even a bookdeal with Oprah.

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Wait until you see me at the next Avsim social in heels and a dress.

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That WILL be interesting. Are you going to also volunteer to be a door doll, booth bunny, or whatever? :)

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"Wait until you see me at the next Avsim social in heels and a dress."We flightsim-heads are open minded and welcoming. No matter what your flightplan, you're amongst friends. :-sun1

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Would you happen to be the author of this pic??? I just see that this is you first post ever on Avsim. I'm just asking cause outta all the pics on airlines it would be kinda hard to pick that one out as a copy so quick.

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>Absolutely! But I ain't shaving my legs or armpits>though!!!Ok, that does it. Tom, we're not attending any more Avsin Conferences until we have a written pledge that your staff member will not be a booth babe even if he does shave :-) :-)

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>You have got to be kidding.>Are the other folks so worried about the Feel There aircraft>preempting their sales?>The extreme number of posts on this forum is nothing but a>commercial product "mine is better than yours" series of>advertisements.>>If you want to do a pixel by pixel comparison - why are you>using screen shots rather then the actual texture from the>aircraft.>>Then after you have compared all 1,048,576 pixels - post real>comparison photos.>>BTW - speaking from experience I'd recommend you not bother>hiring an intellectual property lawyer. He'll just take your>money and tell you neither copyright is legal / enforcable.Sure, you are probably right here. If that lawyer would be only halfway serious, he will tell you that the issue isn't worth the trouble and you should try to sort it out w/o legal assistance (and even that hint may already cost you something).However, left aside the legal cr*p, there are still things like politeness and moral.I thought that the simmer community has more respect for these "common sense" things than usually found in various gaming communities on the net. Most of us have zero tolerance for any form of piracy, and from a moral point of view there is no difference between pirating a commercial software product and pirating a picture you don't hold copyright for (btw. this is *only* a *general statement* and should not be taken as any form of an accusation).If that's really the same picture then I hope they got proper permission to use it. Until we know the facts: "In dubio pro reo" should be the way to deal with this.False accusations aren't better in any way.

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Seeing so many what to find whatever means to crucify FeelThere for Wilco's premature release, why don't we revisit all Feelthere's add-ons for copyright infringement? :-roll With customers like you guys why would anyone want to get in this business... I'm sure getting detail information on International Airports for add-on scenery purposes is infringment to some degree as well in this day and age of terror (every logo from the Food Service carts to the Fuel trucks has no idea we're using their stuff in FS). :-boom For something that's done as a hobby after work (most payware developers), you so called customers of the end product are surely the grateful bunch. Maybe you won't be happy until everything is copywrited much like what Papa Tango wanted to do with the American Airlines logo (how many times has payware developers put that livery on the market). Or maybe your fine with the fact we can't have a Gulfstream in FS for so called 'COPYWRITE INFRINGEMENT'. None of this would have been an issue if the release went flawless but because there was a problem some want to go for the juggler vain.BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR WHEN YOU GET IN THIS SO CALLED INFRINGEMENT GAME. We have been more than lucky over the years in this community for all the designs we've modeled off of real world products. If companies like Garman, Piper, Boeing, or Raytheon decide to pull the plug and play hardball this hobby would be in trouble for sure. To hound someone about a picture could come back to bit in ways you couldn

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