Wilco

[windycloud 30]

Hi, Kroswynd. I enjoyed your post with reasonable and healthy perspectives on things. Experience in the real world of aviation can make many things in this community feel exaggerated, often to a point of being funny and absurd. We take a game as real flying, and we take a mediocre $50 piece of software as an Enron-scale scandal.

[BillW 216]

How silly can you get. All this over a $50 piece of software? Get a grip.

[BillW 216]

Have you asked them for your money to be returned? when you can hook up with them, I would do that. You both will be happier. Just my thoughts.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"I have instructed the Brussels office of my organisation to start inquiries as to the feasibility of legal proceedings against WILCO and/or SIMWARE SIMULATIONS. We are also talking to the Direction Contr

[ahinterl 1]

Interesting how quickly a thread can get out of control. Now we're on the verge of a pending lawsuit...On one hand, I can understand those saying "don't take it too serious, let them time to eliminate the bugs and don't go so far and file a lawsuit" to a certain extent.Indeed, legal actions are a harsh measure here in our small FS world, something that hasn't happened before AFAIK, and it's questionable whether they'd have the expected success.On the other hand, this case could be the beginning of a new era for developers and distributors:until now, we basically had a community of willing payers, even if the delivered product was sub-standard or bug laden.And while moaning and ranting here and there is always present after the release of new add-ons, in general people happily continued to be paying customers. Maybe because they're always happy when something "groundbreaking" comes along, something many waited for a long time.Nowadays the situation has changed a bit: different developers work on very similar products, and the expectations of the customers has reached new heights. A good part of FS users cannot longer be satisfied with products most were happy a couple of years ago - they want it to be a lot more "close to reality".Now look what happens on the developer side: as an FS user, I can regularily watch how they release something that's unfinished "by design" so customers in fact extend the beta phase of the development - nothing bad here, most of them accept this, hoping for patches. But at the same time, many write about their negative experiences in the forums, so the developers get under pressure to push at least something out that resolves the most critical bugs.It seems that during this time, purchases lower and that's what developers and distributors really "feel" - so they produce a patch and get some positive feedback in the public, and people start buying again - money gets in, and the developers at this point mean "it's time to rest a little".For many of them, this rest stretches infinitely - new patches won't be released anymore, so the product stays unfinished.Until now, people were accepting the same situation to revolve over and over again. In their advertising, many developers and distributors act like companies who try to sell washing polvers and liquids: they make the laundry whiter than white, and everyone of us knows that's impossible.If you look at the situation - unfinished products and great advertising on one side and high customer expectations and disappointment on the other - I guess it's only a matter of time until that conflict will cause an excessive response from either side.Now, it seems that we have reached that point. The point where somebody doesn't longer accept the wheels of the threadmill to go round the same way they always did but to stand up and initiate drastic consequences.How far did we come that many say "take it easy and forget about it, you lost your money, so don't buy from them in the future".Let's not forget that not everyone is that wealthy, and in the world at least I live in, I for my person are not allowed to sell the brown, stinking things dogs produce as brown gold barrels and cash some thousand Euros for them. I must bear in mind that this could be something someone doesn't find that funny and accuses me to have stolen his money because of betrayal.I need to work for my money that I'm not given for free, and I have to take responsibility of what I do in the eyes of my bosses.So if you think I have some money to give away, you're completely wrong, I'd surely not pay Wilco/FeelThere for something that unfinished, but rather help some people who really need it, if at all.Wilco's ads tell a different story of what their A320 should be. And since we live in a world where I expect others to act as seriously as I do and to stand after his words, I cannot "take it easy" and let pass the fact that the ads simply aren't true and what FeelThere delivered is not what Wilco wrote it should be.I'm pretty sure that it it weren't an FS add on but a car, a house or something else very expensive, many many more would stand up and protest. Just because it's something that costs 50 US$ doesn't mean that someone is automatically allowed to tell false facts about a product. It's a matter of principles: I cannot kill someone just a little bit. After I murder him, he's dead anyway, whether I take a toothstick or a gatling cannon. So, either I'm in the business and sell something and must deal with all the consequences that may arise of my acting, no matter what I sell, or I let it be and will have no problems at all.I hope the ongoing troubles with Wilco/FeelThere will lead to a change in what's happening in the FS add-on market. For my taste, developers and distributors were allowed to dance on our noses for too long. If that means that FeelThere will resign and leave the scene - bad, but that's how things go. "Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis" - I'm pretty sure another developer will pick up where the former left.And I hope that we all find our way back to what FS should be: entertainment and fun.Since the hobby isn't very cheap, I think that for a precious add-on, many simmers would be willing to pay a fair and reasonable price, even if this price is more than "only" 50 Euros or so.Companies like PMDG and LDS don't hold the crown for nothing, they have deserved it, and people respect this, their reputation is more than good. If it needs a lawsuit to wake up all others from their lethargy, may it be, but something definitely needs to change here.Andreas

[CanadaOne 36]

I would think the simplest, quickest, and most direct way of dealing with this is for all buyers who are not satisfied to ask for a refund. You get your money back and the company is made well aware of your displeasure. If the request/demand for a refund is done politely and in a businesslike fashion, as is done by more than a few buyers, the company, and other companies, will get the message very clearly.The message being that poor communication (sales pitch, forum dialogue, etc.) and inefficiency of online sales are unacceptable and will result in less profit."Flightsim Flyers Guild - Local 747":-lol

[Guest JTEK99]

ahinterl:It's been a while since I've seen a post so well thought out in explaining this "clash" of systems. My compliments to you in summarizing it all so very well. Just a few comments in solidarity with your statements:>It seems that during this time, purchases lower and that's>what developers and distributors really "feel" - so they>produce a patch and get some positive feedback in the public,>and people start buying again - money gets in, and the>developers at this point mean "it's time to rest a little".>>For many of them, this rest stretches infinitely - new patches>won't be released anymore, so the product stays unfinished.Yes! This is exactly what happens. People either start buying again or, conversely, no one buys at all. And then the addon is 'abandoned'. And, you know... it's not the abandonment of the addon that really bugs me; I, too, understand what it is to have limited resources in a small business. What really ticks me off is that the developer -- instead of simply admitting the lack of resources -- completely covers up the matter by (a) saying that no problems exist whatsoever (therefore no patches are necessary) and (:( deleting any posts on internal forums which contradict (a) by pointing out a host of existent problems. I guess I simply hate the lies; it's out and out unfair to the consumer and, quite frankly, insulting to even the dimmest of simmers.>If you look at the situation - unfinished products and great>advertising on one side and high customer expectations and>disappointment on the other - I guess it's only a matter of>time until that conflict will cause an excessive response from>either side.Perfectly stated. This is exactly the conflict that's occurring. >I need to work for my money that I'm not given for free, and I>have to take responsibility of what I do in the eyes of my>bosses.Exactly. Why should a developer be exempt from this absolutely BASIC responsibility? In ANY work environment, if an employee is caught lying or obfuscating the truth and it compromises a product or service in a serious way, NO ONE in that company rushes to the employees defense and says: "Well.. what do you expect? He/she only makes $X.XX per hour!"After all, no one forced the employee to take the job; but, once accepted (i.e., takes the money), that employee bears the responsibilities assigned to him/her without exception. It's the most simple of contractual obligations: you receive money for your service and that service MUST match what is expected and/or STATED by you.>Wilco's ads tell a different story of what their A320 should>be. And since we live in a world where I expect others to act>as seriously as I do and to stand after his words, I cannot>"take it easy" and let pass the fact that the ads simply>aren't true and what FeelThere delivered is not what Wilco>wrote it should be.Also perfectly stated and, suffice to say, Wilco/Feelthere isn't the only developer out there that's done this. In short, if you can't produce a product that matches your marketing, you need to change the marketing. If you don't, you're lying. It's THAT simple.>I hope the ongoing troubles with Wilco/FeelThere will lead to>a change in what's happening in the FS add-on market. For my>taste, developers and distributors were allowed to dance on>our noses for too long. If that means that FeelThere will>resign and leave the scene - bad, but that's how things go.>"Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis" - I'm pretty sure>another developer will pick up where the former left.Exactly. After all, why should ANY developer be immune to the rigors of a truly free marketplace? That's how it goes when you disappoint your potential customer base. It happens to other businesses outside the paradoxical flightsim world all the time without apologists coming out of the woodwork en masse to make excuses for the product.Without the economic and social pressure a customer can wield when dissatisfied, a company can continue (and often WILL continue) bad business practices. In point of fact, without an outcry, a given company will see the 'silence' and lack of pressure as acceptance of their methods and, as a direct result, generally push the envelope even more.>Companies like PMDG and LDS don't hold the crown for nothing,>they have deserved it, and people respect this, their>reputation is more than good. If it needs a lawsuit to wake up>all others from their lethargy, may it be, but something>definitely needs to change here.Indeed, they deserve that praide, if only for the fact that they don't LIE or obfuscate ANY problems that crop up after release of their product. They don't hide for a week and say there's a conflict with their online vending system. They don't spend DAYS in their forums ruthlessly pruning or deleting threads which don't match their marketing. In a word, they don't act "silly" (as many irate customers are prone to do, myself included); they act professionally. And they act professionally, mind you, at exactly the instance when professionalism is MOST required: when there are problems.And anyone out there in Apologists' Land who thinks LDS or PMDG are the "exception to the rule" needs to examine what they think the "rule" really is. Is it that lying is acceptable because 50 euros isn't much in the grand scheme of things? Or is it, quite simply, that a business should treat potential customers as they would like to be treated themselves?I'll let you be the judge.Again, ahinterl, a most excellent summation. Thanks again.

[windycloud 30]

>On the other hand, this case could be the beginning of a new>era for developers and distributors.What case? There will never be a case. All we see here is some complaints turning into a worthless laughable joke.But I think your post is good nonetheless. It's good to see that people care enough to bring in indepth discussion. Jason

[Guest petepawn]

I know I will be lynched after this in this thread, but a couple of words concerning the original case:I felt completely the same (ripped) as many here on Monday morning.. I purchased the Wilco Airbus on Thursday evening knowing that maybe it's not very special compared to my best (so far) airplane PMDG B73X-serie. The main reason was to get something bigger for FSX..Well on Thursday after purchasing I got no confirmation (and the key-code) so I e-mailed to Wilco support.. Nothing on Friday. Nothing on Sunday evening, getting nervous while reading the bashing of the product on forums, but on Monday afternoon I got two friendly e-mails from Wilco and succeeded in loading the standard version (39

[MarkRey 16]

I think you are generalising a bit too much. Whining is unjustified exaggerated complaining after buying something (REGARDLESS of price) that was clearly advertised, properly packaged and sold, and is adequately supported.Someone who deceptively sells candy today could be selling cars next year - merchants must be held accountable for false advertising where applicable. If you get the wrong order for a $10 meal will you just shut up and eat because it only costs $10?The appropriate level of protest/accountability is another question.regards,Markhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/a320/custbanner2.jpg

[Guest SilverCircle]

>Kids you can't get real A320 aircraft for 50$, it's THAT>SIMPLE. True, and we all know that. But you can (and you are supposed to) get a product which WORKS AS ADVERTISED.

[Guest SilverCircle]

>I have the answer, just do what I did.>Buy the Shockwave Spitifre instead. It's less than $20 and if>you make the propeller-thingy turn, it flies up in the air and>does flips and rolls and all sorts of funky things.Good point. How does it compare to the RealAir spitfire (yes, I know the shockwave models a different plane - that's just meant as a general question, model quality, vc etc..)?

[Guest Pilot533]

>Someone who deceptively sells candy today could be selling cars next >year - merchants must be held accountable for false advertising where >applicable. If you get the wrong order for a $10 meal will you just >shut up and eat because it only costs $10?Right, I have said this alot over the past few days and I will say it again. Get real people. Sometimes its not time to just be "nice". Be realistic, don't be afraid to say the truth if its the truth, because life's not "nice". The fact is they have this all coming to them for releasing an unrealistic product when it was advertised to be on par with lds and such. False advertising is the crime here. And no more bs about getting a multi million dollar sim for $50, pmdg, level d, dreamfleet, and hopefully airxp can do it right for that price, so stop the bs.

[SierraDelta 1,360]

>I have instructed the Brussels office of my organisation to>start inquiries as to the feasibility of legal proceedings>against blah blahYour office called - they wonder why you missed your appointment with the psychiatrist today???

[crosswind 827]

If the CAP fit, let them wear it, If the CAP fit, let them wear it.This is almost better than a good episode of Seinfeld, I'll just sit back and watch, while some participants raise their blood pressure. I never said that that false advertising was acceptable, but the level to which some members are going with this is hilarious.Kroswynd