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ricardo296

Typical flaps configuration

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With your definition of typical, I use FLAPS10 for 747 and FLAPS22 for MD11 for takeoff.For landing, it really depends on weight for the 747 but the MD11 will usually be FLAPS35 (with the typical caviat).I really dislike the "typical" tho-- it is best to understand the performance tables in the 747 manual (MD11 unfortunately does not have these).

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With your definition of typical, I use FLAPS10 for 747 and FLAPS22 for MD11 for takeoff.For landing, it really depends on weight for the 747 but the MD11 will usually be FLAPS35 (with the typical caviat).I really dislike the "typical" tho-- it is best to understand the performance tables in the 747 manual (MD11 unfortunately does not have these).
FEDEX uses 25* for takeoff, they don't use dial a flap.Michael P.

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The 747 only has two possible takeoff settings (10 and 20) and two for landing (25 or 30), so options are limited. For takeoff, flap 10 means higher V1 and Vr (and so a longer takeoff run) but results in an increased climb angle compared to Flap 20. For landing it's usually a matter of airline policy. Flap 30 gives you a lower Vref so a shorter landing roll.With it's better climb performance, Flap 10 would mean less noise. Flap 25 would mean less noise when landing (lower drag than Flap 30).If not performance limited or noise restricted it's simply a matter of pilot preference. Basically you can use either setting and be correct.Kevin

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FEDEX uses 25* for takeoff, they don't use dial a flap.Michael P.
How do you not "Dial" 25 in? It goes from 15 to 28?I've been using 15 on the MD-11 mainly because my flights are fairly short <1000 NM and my load is usually 2/3. Seems to work fine, but I do want to play with Dial-a-Flap. Maybe tonight. I just wish we had charts for that.

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When I started with the MD11 I too used 15 to TO... it is convenient because it doesn't have to be re-dialed for approach. Then someone from Swiss I think mentioned they use 22 per company policy and I thought what the heck. I have also read a different company uses 18-22 based on charts we don't have, and in this thread I learn FDX uses 25. Seems to be all over the chart.One of these days I'd like to run some trials to see how the settings 15,20 and 25 affect distance to Vr and time to climb to 1000 agl... just don't have the time this week.

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When I started with the MD11 I too used 15 to TO... it is convenient because it doesn't have to be re-dialed for approach. Then someone from Swiss I think mentioned they use 22 per company policy and I thought what the heck. I have also read a different company uses 18-22 based on charts we don't have, and in this thread I learn FDX uses 25. Seems to be all over the chart.One of these days I'd like to run some trials to see how the settings 15,20 and 25 affect distance to Vr and time to climb to 1000 agl... just don't have the time this week.
Well, since it's a guess based on the little info we do have, plus knowledge from other large airliners, I figured 15 was fine for my current flights. All the flights I've had time to complete have been from long runways with a 2/3 load and short CRZ length. I've always rotated in more than enough time, even with a decent derate. I've yet to pick a flight from FlightAware with a shorter runway. V1 to Vr to V2 comes so fast and I'm always at 180 knots (+/- 10) before I can blink.My problem has been approach. I keep getting opposite end runways and my selection of waypoints to IAF seems to leave me too high for proper G/S capture or good glidepath to the field. It always seems like I'm doing okay, but after the IAF, the VDI drops and I'm too high to make the FAF at altitude. I just can't wash off the amount of altitude it leaves me with. I know it's my fault for poor reliance on the PROF to handle descent, but I'm rather lazy about my math. Plus when I never know what runways I can land, I'm always worried about being too low in case I get an opposite end. I can't figure out why PROF is so good though until the IAF, then it doesn't work out anymore. I have to enter a hold or GA. I never had this problem in the past, but lately I haven't had the time to really plan a good flight, let alone fly at all.

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For what its worth, in the ITVV Martinair video the Captain states that they use flaps 25 for normal operations.Mark.

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For what its worth, in the ITVV Martinair video the Captain states that they use flaps 25 for normal operations.Mark.
The question remains...how do you use the MD-11 flaps "normally", to select a flap amount? All I've got to go on is the MD-11"Tutorial1", which leaves a lot of questions unanswered. How do you incrementally extend/retract flaps without that "dial-a-flap" silliness? What were they smoking at MD when they came up with this? Once again...less control by the pilot, just like their AP/AT/NAV/PROF way of doing things...silly. You want AT on...click the AT button. You want AP on...click the AP button. You want VOR nav...click VOR. You want FMS navigation...click "LNAV". Nothing could be simpler and easier to use. That's why I love Boeing's...complete control without having to guess. You want something...push the button.

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The question remains...how do you use the MD-11 flaps "normally", to select a flap amount? All I've got to go on is the MD-11"Tutorial1", which leaves a lot of questions unanswered. How do you incrementally extend/retract flaps without that "dial-a-flap" silliness? What were they smoking at MD when they came up with this? Once again...less control by the pilot, just like their AP/AT/NAV/PROF way of doing things...silly. You want AT on...click the AT button. You want AP on...click the AP button. You want VOR nav...click VOR. You want FMS navigation...click "LNAV". Nothing could be simpler and easier to use. That's why I love Boeing's...complete control without having to guess. You want something...push the button.
After having spent hours on end studying FCOMs, POHs, AOMs and the likes and trying to "fly" this and that airliner in FS, I've come to the conclusion that there's only a limited number of airplanes with systems I'd call "mature". Take the A320 series as an example, the FMS can do almost everything, the number of switches and knobs is reduced to a minimum and operation of the systems is more intuitive and logic. Though, the're still things I personnally would say are "left" to improve on this plane, for instance an engine start with the press of a single button like in the ERJ-170 series.IMHO the point is that on one hand manufacturers strip features in favor of producing cheaper planes, on the other hand older planes are like "testbeds" for future developments, and some planes are even retrofitted with more modern technology. Take the MD-11 VOR mode for instance: To me this looks like some feature introduced at a later time, otherwise I'd expect a simple "VOR/LOC" button on the glareshield. Handling is complicated this way since an essential autopilot function is transferred to the MCDU whereas the glareshield from a logical standpoint should be the first place to command flight modes. Same goes for the overhead where the pilots need to wait more than 4 seconds after switching to manual mode because otherwise the logic controller gets messed up - why isn't that automated? Probably the technology wasn't there yet when it was implemented.I have the impression that the more modern planes get, the more the cockpits are adopted to airliner operations, i.e. the things a pilot is "allowed" to do and what the plane offers in terms of flight management. That's probably the reason why you don't find the green arc on the ND in Airbuses, something that many Boeings have. The Airbus designers decided that this is no feature needed for airliner operation on the daily duty, so they left it out.So, I found that any plane is in certain areas a big compromise between usability, logical handling and functionality. I guess it depends on one's own preference whether one likes some plane's systems or not, and so prefers flying that plane in FS or not. I have a bunch of fine looking aircraft in my virtual hangar that I'd really love to fly - if there weren't the annoying misconceptions in the handling of the bird that ruin my flight experience. I often ask if something was invented from someone under the influence of strong drugs, and I often wonder how pilots can adapt to such systems when I need to bear in mind that in an emergency, everything needs to be done very quickly (without thinking), and if something is illogical, I can imagine pilots are more likely to make errors in such situations.I still miss the "perfect" plane, but the 737NG and A320 come very close for my taste...Andreas

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The question remains...how do you use the MD-11 flaps "normally", to select a flap amount? All I've got to go on is the MD-11"Tutorial1", which leaves a lot of questions unanswered. How do you incrementally extend/retract flaps without that "dial-a-flap" silliness? What were they smoking at MD when they came up with this? Once again...less control by the pilot, just like their AP/AT/NAV/PROF way of doing things...silly. You want AT on...click the AT button. You want AP on...click the AP button. You want VOR nav...click VOR. You want FMS navigation...click "LNAV". Nothing could be simpler and easier to use. That's why I love Boeing's...complete control without having to guess. You want something...push the button.
Yeah its a shame that MD didn't develop their aircraft to be flown without reading any documentation... :(That was sarcasm if you couldn't tell.As far as the "dial-a-flap" "silliness" is concerned, it is actually a very straight forward concept that offers the pilot MORE control over aircraft performance on take off.Oh what is this? an excerpt from the MD-11 manual?!Flaps position may be selected using the dial-a-flap system, a movable detent for flaps setting. The detent is selected by rotating the dial-a-flap thumb wheel until the required detend flap setting appears in the FLAP T.O. SEL window. Fifteen non-linear divisions are displayed in the window. These divisions represent detent settings between 10 degrees and 25 degrees of flap deflection...A movable detent for takeoff allows setting the flaps at the position which would provide best takeoff performance for a given set of field conditions. To set takeoff flaps and slats, the flight crew rotates the thumb wheel until the proper takeoff flap setting is displayed in the FLAP T.O. SEL window. The flight crew then lifts the FLAP/SLAT handle out of the 0 degree detent and pulls aft until the handle latches in the detent. THIS IS THE "LOWER FLAP INCREMENTALLY" BUTTON IN FS.To retract takeoff flaps and slats, the flight crew grasps the FLAP/SLAT handle and lifts up while moving the handle forward... THIS IS THE "RAISE FLAP INCREMENTALLY" BUTTON IN FS.To extend landing flaps and slats when in the UP/retract detent, the flight crew lifts the FLAP/SLAT handle up and aft past the go-around gate to either 35 degrees or 50 degrees landing detent. More great information like this in the manual that comes with the simulation... :(

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Yeah its a shame that MD didn't develop their aircraft to be flown without reading any documentation... :(That was sarcasm if you couldn't tell.As far as the "dial-a-flap" "silliness" is concerned, it is actually a very straight forward concept that offers the pilot MORE control over aircraft performance on take off.Oh what is this? an excerpt from the MD-11 manual?!Flaps position may be selected using the dial-a-flap system, a movable detent for flaps setting. The detent is selected by rotating the dial-a-flap thumb wheel until the required detend flap setting appears in the FLAP T.O. SEL window. Fifteen non-linear divisions are displayed in the window. These divisions represent detent settings between 10 degrees and 25 degrees of flap deflection...A movable detent for takeoff allows setting the flaps at the position which would provide best takeoff performance for a given set of field conditions. To set takeoff flaps and slats, the flight crew rotates the thumb wheel until the proper takeoff flap setting is displayed in the FLAP T.O. SEL window. The flight crew then lifts the FLAP/SLAT handle out of the 0 degree detent and pulls aft until the handle latches in the detent. THIS IS THE "LOWER FLAP INCREMENTALLY" BUTTON IN FS.To retract takeoff flaps and slats, the flight crew grasps the FLAP/SLAT handle and lifts up while moving the handle forward... THIS IS THE "RAISE FLAP INCREMENTALLY" BUTTON IN FS.To extend landing flaps and slats when in the UP/retract detent, the flight crew lifts the FLAP/SLAT handle up and aft past the go-around gate to either 35 degrees or 50 degrees landing detent. More great information like this in the manual that comes with the simulation... :(
Sorry to not agree here fully. Of course, the dial-a-flap system allows greater control in terms of almost full freedom of choice, but on the other hand: who needs that?Better comfort means increased chance to survive a flight in real life. While over-complicated planes are much fun to learn and study and finally (well, almost) "master", if I were put to choose an aircraft of choice, I'd select the one where my brain needs the less work to do. Simply because if things go wrong and "acting quickly" is the name of the game, I'd have not time to fiddle here and there and remember all the small details. Life is precious, and simming is different from real life...So, straightforward handling is always preferable for me, and as much advanced the dial-a-flap system is, it's indeed unneeded (who carries all the docs with him for all the different flaps variations?), Airbus shows that 1-2-3-FULL can be satisfactory. That doesn't mean automatics should overrule the pilot, but they should "work for him".Same goes for other systems, so the absence of AP, AT and V/L switches on the glareshield isn't "real pilots don't need that", but a severe lack in ergonomics!If you like it complicated, fly a Tu-154. I prefer a 737NG or an A320. Nevertheless the MD-11 is a jewel and a real masterpiece!!!!!AndreasAndreas

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As stated above it really is personal preference. Different airlines have different policies on it so I just basically shot the gap.For a normal take off (no wet weather or high winds) I usually base it on how much fuel I'm using.For a short flight (around 500-1000nm) I use:MD-11 Flaps 15747 Flaps 10For a long flight (EGLL>KLAX) I use:MD-11 Flaps 25747 Flaps 20I am by no means an expert but these settings work well for me.Dan Schultz

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Well I guess you have all answered my question....just get the stab in the green and go, ha :(

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