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Yoda967

Flight1 Mustang SID/STAR Capability

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Flight1 is updating the Mustang again in the next few days, this time to allow for Navigraph updates to the nav database and to provide for SID/STAR selection from within the G1000. The nav database is the same one you're familiar with if you use Navigraph products for other addons, which means that areas outside North America are covered. A complete database is included with the update, and there are no installed nags, so if you don't wish to subscribe to Navigraph, you won't have to...but it's there if you want it.

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Flight1 is updating the Mustang again in the next few days, this time to allow for Navigraph updates to the nav database and to provide for SID/STAR selection from within the G1000. The nav database is the same one you're familiar with if you use Navigraph products for other addons, which means that areas outside North America are covered. A complete database is included with the update, and there are no installed nags, so if you don't wish to subscribe to Navigraph, you won't have to...but it's there if you want it.
Good news, Kurt :(EDIT: Maybe I missed it, but will we be able to use VNAV along with these STAR's and waypoints? If not, are there plans to implement VNAV in the future?

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I doubt it. The real-world Mustang is not VNAV capable, and Flight1 has stated numerous times they don't plan on implementing anything that the real aircraft can't do. Which I think is good.Gotta learn how to use the Mustang's real-world capabilities, as modeled in the F1 'stang, to fly it in FSX.

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The real-world Mustang is not VNAV capable...
I thought it was :
We headed toward Independence, a nontower airport that is home to the Mustang production line. The Vnav function on the Garmin is robust enough for most any pilot. Alexander and I told the system to plan on our reaching an altitude about 3,500 feet agl a few miles away from the airport so we could test how well the system would couple to the GPS 17 approach there.
Exerpt from Pilot Report: Cessna Mustang - Aviation International News >> October 2006 - AIN is the first to fly the certified VLJ, fully-loaded and to its FL410 ceiling.

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Hallelujah bothers and sisters. Been waiting for this.

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This build just makes it possible to update the nav data, and fixes a few cats and dogs. Sorry, no VNAV in this update.

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This build just makes it possible to update the nav data, and fixes a few cats and dogs. Sorry, no VNAV in this update.
Thanks Kurt . Looking forward to the update :(

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Jean-Paul,My bad on my above reply. I didn't say it the way I meant it and it really came out wrong. What I meant was some Mustang customers expected a VNAV in the Mustang that included a fully "hands off" type of VNAV function, such as an auto-throttle system also. The Mustang won't do that, as the quote below from the same article you quoted indicates."Within a few minutes of the top of descent (TOD) warning from the computer-generated

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This is good news. But have they fixed the autopilot yet? Namely busting altitudes, porpoising in climbs?

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This is good news. But have they fixed the autopilot yet? Namely busting altitudes, porpoising in climbs?
Spaceman, what IAS are you climbing at? The most common factor that causes porpoising in climbs is that folks are climbing at too high a speed. Normal climb speeds should be in the 170-140 KIAS range, slower IAS the higher you get. If you stay at say 250 kts the engines will eventually be unable to keep that AND climb at the same time. The nose is lowered to get back to 250 kts, then raised to climb. The speed bleeds off again, rinse and repeat => porpoising.

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Jean-Paul,My bad on my above reply. I didn't say it the way I meant it and it really came out wrong. What I meant was some Mustang customers expected a VNAV in the Mustang that included a fully "hands off" type of VNAV function, such as an auto-throttle system also. The Mustang won't do that, as the quote below from the same article you quoted indicates."Within a few minutes of the top of descent (TOD) warning from the computer-generated

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Spaceman, what IAS are you climbing at? The most common factor that causes porpoising in climbs is that folks are climbing at too high a speed. Normal climb speeds should be in the 170-140 KIAS range, slower IAS the higher you get. If you stay at say 250 kts the engines will eventually be unable to keep that AND climb at the same time. The nose is lowered to get back to 250 kts, then raised to climb. The speed bleeds off again, rinse and repeat => porpoising.
That may well be, but there should not be porpoising in any event. Does the real aircraft porpoise if you climb at 200kts on autopilot? What should happen is that the fpm should just bleed off to maintain the selected airspeed. You can tell that's what the AP is trying to do but it keeps missing the target, thus the porpoising.From my experience with the Flight1 Mustang, if you set it to FPA mode, everything is solid. It was just FLC mode that didn't work. BTW, where did you read that the Mustang can't climb any faster than 170kts?And on my second question, does it still bust the selected altitutde on climb? It was pretty disconcerting to blow through my initial assigned altitude by 200+ feet.

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That may well be, but there should not be porpoising in any event. Does the real aircraft porpoise if you climb at 200kts on autopilot? What should happen is that the fpm should just bleed off to maintain the selected airspeed. You can tell that's what the AP is trying to do but it keeps missing the target, thus the porpoising.From my experience with the Flight1 Mustang, if you set it to FPA mode, everything is solid. It was just FLC mode that didn't work. BTW, where did you read that the Mustang can't climb any faster than 170kts?And on my second question, does it still bust the selected altitutde on climb? It was pretty disconcerting to blow through my initial assigned altitude by 200+ feet.
Spaceman, I

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Plus, to add to the above, if you are using the FSX default weather, the OAT's for altitudes are extremely unrealistic. They are usually much too high, which will significantly reduce the Mustang's climbing performance at higher altitudes.As SAS263 said, there are many posts in the Mustang forum about this also...and how to "fix" it in FSX when using the Mustang. Improper use of the Mustang flight control systems (ie- not using real-world modeled procedures for climbs), combined with the FSX OAT problem, can make getting the Mustang in FSX any higher than say FL250 an effort in futility.FalconAF

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I take it you have the most recent patched version. What happens if you initiate a climb through say, 8000 at 200kts in FLC mode? Does it porpoise? I'd love to know.
as far as i can tell the porpoising is a bug introduced by using external views or pause. if i stay in the cockpit i get very stable FLC climbs, but when i use external camera or pause the sim, the FD resets instantly to 0 pitch before it gradually moves back to where it was before, leading to the plane trying to chase the FD down and up a few times. it's a little annoying, one of the only things that bugs me about the plane which otherwise flies beautifully.i'm not so sure about the OAT problems either. every issue i had with that seemed related to an earlier build of ASA and went away after switching to 394. haven't really flown it with default weather much.cheers,-andy crosby

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Spaceman,As I write this, I'm "bracing for impact". My original post in this thread was intended as a courtesy to the community at large, and not meant to spark a debate on the merits of the Flight1 offering. Please accept my responses below in the spirit in which they're offered: a genuine interest in being helpful.

From my experience with the Flight1 Mustang, if you set it to FPA mode, everything is solid.
I've never heard of FPA mode. Are you referring to VS mode? If so, you're correct, it's solid as a rock.
Well I have looked at the mustang forums in the past. The reason I'm asking these questions is because I returned the airplane due to missing SID's/STAR's and the faulty autopilot for the most part. I'd love to repurchase it if these things have been corrected, but it sounds like the autopilot is still FUBAR. In the real world, a Mustang cruise climbs at around 200kts. The autopilot should be able to handle such a configuration smoothly. If not, then something still sounds broken.
You're right, there's a YouTube video out there that includes an astonished remark to the effect that the Mustang is climbing at 200 knots, made by a first-time Mustang flyer accustomed to his piston twin , but I don't believe they mention the rate of climb at the time.The Flight1 Mustang will absolutely climb at 200 KIAS, but as with almost any aircraft, indicated airspeed will tail off as you climb. Starting at MTOW and climbing from sea level, you can expect to maintain at least 200 KIAS and a 2,000 fpm climb up to about 12 or 13 thousand feet, depending on air temperature. (Hotter air plus same rate of climb plus roughly constant thrust equals less airspeed.) When folks say that you should be climbing at 170 knots, they're referring to the best rate-of-climb airspeed, which is initially 170 KIAS, and somewhat less at higher altitudes. Now, as I said, you can climb at 200 knots, though as someone else pointed out, you can't expect to maintain that speed above FL250 and climb very quickly. To respond directly to your comment about the autopilot -- you're correct, the Flight1 Mustang's autopilot should be able to handle this kind of demand. It does.
I take it you have the most recent patched version. What happens if you initiate a climb through say, 8000 at 200kts in FLC mode? Does it porpoise? I'd love to know.
What happens is very much dependent on the aircraft's state when you initiate the climb. Let's say that you're at 8,000 feet and you've got the throttles in the CRU detent, so you're cruising at around 245 KIAS. You select a higher altitude (doesn't matter what it is), and choose FLC. The Flight1 G1000 does what the real one does: it sets the FLC airspeed to 245 knots. You'll maintain level flight. If you rapidly dial the speed down to 200 knots, the AFCS will pitch the nose up in order to reduce airspeed, and you'll climb until you reach the selected altitude. But there's a catch -- that rapid decelleration will drive you past the target speed, which causes the AFCS to pitch down so that speed increases. I've seen that happen in many, many MSFS aircaft, enough that I suspect that's how it actually is in the real world. The Mustang has no autothrottle as there is with a Boeing-style autopilot, so the airplane will (as conditions change in the climb) seek to meet the commanded airspeed purely by varying pitch. That's what sets up your porpoising. That is not how FLC mode is intended to be used.
Can you give me the quick and dirty. What is the suggested fix? Not to climb faster than 170kts? I own many advanced payware add-ons, I've never seen one have this sort of problem with the FSX weather system. If my memory serves me, I never had any trouble getting the airplane up to alititude, I just couldn't use FLC mode to do it or it was Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.
Even in the real Mustang, the proper technique is to select the altitude, establish the climb, wait for the airspeed to bleed off to the desired climb airspeed, and THEN select FLC to maintain the climb. This works very well in the Flight1 Mustang. Hope this helps.

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Kurt,Thanks for your detailed response. Good stuff. Just to clarify. You said:"Even in the real Mustang, the proper technique is to select the altitude, establish the climb, wait for the airspeed to bleed off to the desired climb airspeed, and THEN select FLC to maintain the climb. This works very well in the Flight1 Mustang."I'm fairly sure that was the technique I was using, but it was 3 months ago. So given your example, I'm at holding at an intermediate altitude, say, 8000 and 240kts, in the cruise detent. Then I dial in FL280, advance the throttles to climb power and roll 200kts into the AP, as the plane slows to 200, I hit FLC and it takes it smoothly up to altitude? I understand that the climb rate approaching 280 at 200kts would be low (900fpm or less I'm guessing), but would it handle this scenario ok at that speed? As to your comment about autothrottles, I'm not sure that it should matter in this situation. The throttles will be commanded to climb thrust and the elevator will be used to maintain a constant speed. Just like the EMB's "speed on elevator" mode. The rate of climb is what it is. My only concern is that the airplane does not hunt for the proper air speed.Anyway, I'd be a happy camper if the Flight1 Stang could do this without making me feel like I was at Six Flags.

as far as i can tell the porpoising is a bug introduced by using external views or pause. if i stay in the cockpit i get very stable FLC climbs, but when i use external camera or pause the sim, the FD resets instantly to 0 pitch before it gradually moves back to where it was before, leading to the plane trying to chase the FD down and up a few times. it's a little annoying, one of the only things that bugs me about the plane which otherwise flies beautifully.i'm not so sure about the OAT problems either. every issue i had with that seemed related to an earlier build of ASA and went away after switching to 394. haven't really flown it with default weather much.cheers,-andy crosby
Interesting info. I rarely switch view modes, but since the airplane was new, I may have. That's an odd bug, but one that I could work around.Thanks for the info.

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"Even in the real Mustang, the proper technique is to select the altitude, establish the climb, wait for the airspeed to bleed off to the desired climb airspeed, and THEN select FLC to maintain the climb. This works very well in the Flight1 Mustang."I'm fairly sure that was the technique I was using, but it was 3 months ago. So given your example, I'm at holding at an intermediate altitude, say, 8000 and 240kts, in the cruise detent. Then I dial in FL280, advance the throttles to climb power and roll 200kts into the AP, as the plane slows to 200, I hit FLC and it takes it smoothly up to altitude? I understand that the climb rate approaching 280 at 200kts would be low (900fpm or less I'm guessing), but would it handle this scenario ok at that speed? As to your comment about autothrottles, I'm not sure that it should matter in this situation. The throttles will be commanded to climb thrust and the elevator will be used to maintain a constant speed. Just like the EMB's "speed on elevator" mode. The rate of climb is what it is. My only concern is that the airplane does not hunt for the proper air speed.
Close, but allow me to suggest a few changes to your style :)Ok, we

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Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. I know you manually control thrust in cruise, but I thought the annunciator showed crz or something like that. It's been awhile, so I could be wrong.I'll trust you that it works ok using the method described. I guess my only other question is if this is the real world procedure? One would think that you should be able to go from cruise into flc mode directly as vs mode serves an entirely different (obviously) purpose than flc. If the method you just described is more of a work around, I can be ok with that (to get it to work smoothly), but it just seems a bit awkward.Thanks again.

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Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. I know you manually control thrust in cruise, but I thought the annunciator showed crz or something like that. It's been awhile, so I could be wrong.I'll trust you that it works ok using the method described. I guess my only other question is if this is the real world procedure? One would think that you should be able to go from cruise into flc mode directly as vs mode serves an entirely different (obviously) purpose than flc. If the method you just described is more of a work around, I can be ok with that (to get it to work smoothly), but it just seems a bit awkward.Thanks again.
I

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And keep in mind...comparing the Mustang to any other business class jet can be very misleading. It isn't a Lear 45. It's a VLT...Very Light Jet. Those two engines hanging on the side are nowhere near as powerfull as other business class jets. Once you get above FL 250 in the Mustang, it just isn't going to continue to climb like a Lear 45. Especially if you have a full fuel load and/or took off at close to maximum operating weight limits. The service ceiling of it may be FL410, but you ain't gonna get there with your hair on fire, or anything close to max weight loads from an initial takeoff. Those engines just aren't powerfull enough to do that.The Mustang forums have several posts in them from real-world Mustang pilots who explain how to fly this thing. The biggest "complaints" about the Mustang when it was first released were from users who expected it to fly like a B737 or the Lear 45. You just CAN'T expect that type of climb performance out of it as a VLJ. And yes...one of the real-world Mustang pilots in those forums said in one of his tutorials that the RECOMMENDED and STANDARD climb speed for the Mustang is initially 170 knots...as stated in the Operating Manual that comes with the Flight1 Mustang. So if you ARE flying it with climb speeds of 200 knots, you are NOT doing it as the real world pilots normally do it.The other main problem people experience is they DON'T understand how to correctly use the autopilot system in the Mustang. There is a proper and improper way to initiate climbs and descents with it, and it is not intuitevly the same as using most other autopilot systems, due to lack of an autothrottle system. All the "proper" ways ARE discussed by these real-world Mustang pilots in the Mustang forum tutorials they posted. When you use THOSE ways to do it, which do coincide with the included Operating Manual that comes with the Mustang, the Mustang works perfectly. But the PERFORMANCE of the Mustang may still suffer from using the default FSX OAT temperatures at altitude, if that is what you are using in FSX. One "fix" for this is to use the FSX Advanced Weather Settings screen to change the upper altitude temperatures to something more realistic if you are using default FSX weather. Most third-party weather generation programs that use real-world weather downloads will have much more accurate upper altitude temperatures if you use those programs.FalconAF

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Just to add to our statements regarding climb speeds. Look at this short video of a flight test...ish of a Mustang. Pay attention to what speeds the pilot is talking about, it

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To be honest chaps, I don't know if i'm missing something, but i'm not sure what all the fuss is about. :( FLC in the Mustang is not akin to flight level change in an airliner. It's more akin to indicated airspeed hold. Pitch is automatically adjusted to maintain the target airspeed. Therefore, of course there will be variations in pitch [call it porpoising if you like] because that

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Thanks, Martin.I took the time last evening to do a little flight testing, first to see how the Mustang performs in a 200 KIAS climb to FL280 with FLC selected, and second, to compare this performance with the Cessna-recommended 160-170 KIAS climb. I started at KMYF runway 28R, weather clear, default takeoff speeds, flaps set to TO/APR. Started the timer for each run when I advanced the throttles to TO. On liftoff, I held ten degrees nose up pitch until the aircraft was cleaned up (gear up, flaps up, throttles in the CLB detent), then went on the AP in VS mode at 2,000 fpm climb until the Mustang had accelerated to the desired climb speed. In both cases, the Mustang was still accelerating fairly rapidly, so to minimize the inevitable zoom, I increased the VS to maintain the desired climb airspeed before selecting FLC.In both cases, climb in FLC mode was stable, with airspeed maintained within plus or minus 1 knot. At 200 KIAS, the variations in climb RATE were significant, though the speed was maintained. At 200 KIAS, I had about 850 fpm of climb going at FL270. The airplane did not overshoot the selected altitude.At 200 KIAS, time to climb was 18:15, distance traveled 75 miles, fuel used 364 pounds.At 170 KIAS, time to climb was 12:30, distance traveled 47 NM, fuel used 224 pounds.What I found interesting about the 170 KIAS climb was that after leveling off and accelerating to cruise airspeed (220 KIAS or so), the Mustang was just about 75 miles from the field at the 18:15 mark, but had used less fuel (287 pounds). Basically, there was no time savings by climbing at a faster airspeed, but the slower airspeed climb offered a significant advantage in fuel consumption. Them Cessna boys are WICKED smart!

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