FSX Piracy Amazing Story

[Guest zzmikezz]

Im not a developer only a Computer Tech with 19 years building computers and maintaining networks and I would love to know the best ways a developer can keep their product from being pirated. Flight1 Wrapper? MS-Style Activation? I hear allot of folks complaining about ariane requiring multiple activations and charges, is this they way? Does Ariane have a pirate problem? Inquiring minds want to know. *grin*

I feel that the Flight1 Wrapper is a good compromise between the needs of end users and the needs of developers.

[rightseater 0]

I feel that the Flight1 Wrapper is a good compromise between the needs of end users and the needs of developers.

I'm curious why you feel that way Mike. The F1 wrapper is constantly being cracked from what I've seen.

[Guest zzmikezz]

I'm curious why you feel that way Mike. The F1 wrapper is constantly being cracked from what I've seen.

There is no useful way to seriously try to stop determined crackers without putting customers through the wringer. Even then the kings of crack will find a way in. So ...In the immortal words of Ron Hamilton of Eaglesoft, what the Flight1 Wrapper does is keep honest customers honest -- it deters casual theft.That's what it does for developers. For customers, what it does is to allow license transfer from one computer to another without your having to talk to a human being, though provision is made for this too.Most developers don't know it but the Flight1 Wrapper can be licensed without the developer having to use Flight1 as his publisher. The wrapper can also be used to create such things as unrestricted 30-day-try-before-buy demos of a full product.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI'm accumulating links to threads for you but while I was out running an errand I recalled the key statistic. By the best data available (meager), half of all software installations are pirated. There are two sources for this number ...First, the creator of an important software development utility told me that his revenue doubled the moment he installed a (home grown) protection scheme.Second, I haven't found the link yet but an association of IT software developers made the same estimate -- that half of their members' installations were pirated copies.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI don't think I can improve this part of the analysis. Tomorrow I'll hunt around for my optimal pricing proposal and for my wouldn't-have-bought-anyway guesstimates ...... Because that's what you do in marketing. You get the best data you can, make the numbers speak, and then stick a wet finger up in the air after which you pledge a business plan that you believe in. (All you can do is all you can do.)

[WarpD 824]

Well, I'm willing to bet your pricing discussion will be about a million light-years off the actual cost and value of the product.It's my experience everyone tends to undervalue aircraft addons the most."Company A" develops a simple GA aircraft that has basic analog gauges. It's modelling and gauge/panel appearance is high quality. They price it at $50."Company B" develops a complex aircraft with full systems simulation combined with a complex autopilot that rivals the real deal. If "Company B" wants to charge more for their product, customers scream that it's overpriced. They will use the "Company A" price-point as justification/evidence.The two aircraft really only have one thing in common, they're both for FS. Aside from that, the complexity difference is staggering. Yet "Company B" will rarely be adequately compensated for their work.

[rightseater 0]

Well I love doing business through Flight 1 because A)the wrapper has never been an inconvenience for me, B)they are very generous in there return policy should need be, and C)I have recieved nothing but stellar support from there. If there technique is at all effective on keeping anyone honest than I applaud them for it. You may be right Ed, in fact Mike has been very open to the fact that his numbers are not fact, but rather educated guesswork. But I think it's a great start to get a sane, civilized discussion going. I know that piracy will always haunt the software industry, but I can't help but to think that more information could go a long way for some of the pirates on the fence right now. There are a few who could go either way still.

[Guest V4DIV-CVN-70]

Well, I'm willing to bet your pricing discussion will be about a million light-years off the actual cost and value of the product.It's my experience everyone tends to undervalue aircraft addons the most."Company A" develops a simple GA aircraft that has basic analog gauges. It's modelling and gauge/panel appearance is high quality. They price it at $50."Company B" develops a complex aircraft with full systems simulation combined with a complex autopilot that rivals the real deal. If "Company B" wants to charge more for their product, customers scream that it's overpriced. They will use the "Company A" price-point as justification/evidence.The two aircraft really only have one thing in common, they're both for FS. Aside from that, the complexity difference is staggering. Yet "Company B" will rarely be adequately compensated for their work.

boy oh boy the discussion about pricing can go On and On and On and On....*grin*

Well I love doing business through Flight 1 because A)the wrapper has never been an inconvenience for me, B)they are very generous in there return policy should need be, and C)I have recieved nothing but stellar support from there. If there technique is at all effective on keeping anyone honest than I applaud them for it.

DITTO i like the wrapper too.All said and Done, The money I have spent on Hardware, Software (addons) Etc.. from 2001-2009, I could have purchased a use Cessna 150 with basic avionics.....*grin*http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cessna-150L...SRCHQ3aUSQ3a101

[Guest belga1]

Hello,

I have casually browsed the other discussion threads and have seen many of my early concerns confirmed about a wide range of DRM and copy protection solutions. I think that CodeMeter avoids the by far largest amount of the problems. I don't want to advertise it as the greatest thing since sliced bread yet I would like to take the opportunity to clarify all the things that you do not get from eSim Games when buying SB Pro PE. * No copy protection The installation media are not made to make it difficult to copy them. If you want to make a backup, you are free to do so. In fact, the eSim Games web server had version 2.370 (now obsolete) available for download without access restrictions. The end user license agreement includes the explicit right to make up to eight backup copies. That should be sufficient even for extravagant requirements and elaborate backup strategies. Installation media can be ordered from eSim Games as well, in case of loss/destruction/damage with a small fee covering the costs for materials, shipping, and handling. * No online verification You don't depend on a server. You don't disclose your using habits. eSim Games totally respects your privacy. No mandatory online accounts that make for interesting hacker targets. No content access limitation without "voluntary" user accounts. * No restrictions for resale You want to sell your copy and license of SB Pro on eBay? Go ahead. There's no need to "un-license" your copy. The license is stored in the CodeMeter stick, and if you hand over the stick the transfer is complete. There is no control imposed on youby the developer what you do with the software after your purchase. You own the license, and you're free to do with it whatever you want. * No installation limits You own more than a single PC? Go ahead, you can install SB Pro PE on all the computers that you own. If you want to play on more than a single computer, additional licenses can be purchased at a much reduced price. * No driver installation, no root kits, no spyware CodeMeter only needs the operating system's driver for USB mass storage devices (and it doesn't change it), the rest of the communication between application and USB stick is handled by a Runtime software. * No need to keep the CD in the drive Install the software, remove the disk, play. Well, if you want you may keep the CD in your drive, but there's no requirement for this. * No need for an Admin account Steel Beasts Pro PE even runs from a Guest account on your computer (there are a few functional restrictions in that case unless you open the map and scenario folders for write access to Guest.Yeah, you do need a free USB slot to run SB Pro PE, can't avoid that.Yeah, you lose your CodeMeter stick, you can't play anymore. Faulty sticks get replaced though, usually free of charge at that. Hey, if you register your stick and report it as stolen, and Wibu System might even be able to lock it, and then we'd replace the loss with no more than the material value of a new CodeMeter stick.In an ideal world we wouldn't need any of this #%&*$#, but apparently the honor principle doesn't get honored very well when it comes to digital content. We have to protect our work somehow. All in all I think that the CodeMeter is the least intrusive, least complicated, and most flexible solution available to us which still helps to combat piracy. A legitimate customer doesn't suffer from limitations and restrictions and privacy invasions that a pirate would not.Flame on._________________________Visit the home of Steel Beasts!

Apparently there are ways to embed license distribution into shop solutions to automatize some steps which might help reducing the workload. Currently we can handle it, but I appreciate your concern for our well-being. biggrinIf SB Pro PE was a mass product, maybe we would go the way of other big developers - make a console version first, and release a shoddy port two years later for the PC, knowing that a significant percentage of sales will be lost to piracy. But by then you have recouped most if not all of your initial development investment, and whatever comes in from PC sales is just a little extra.In fact, this is one of the reactions of the game industry to the piracy problem, and it shows that piracy DOES destroy PC gaming. There are very few titles which get developed as a pur PC title, and pretty much all the AAA titles that get released these days are console ports with their rather clunky controls (e.g. Mass Effect). Another is MMORPG and other pay for play solutions. Finally there's Steam where you are essentially at the mercy of the developer/publisher (that is, others are in control).If many people had a CodeMeter stick and more software developers would use it, the costs for this much stronger license protection would actually be lower than the license costs for SecuROM and similar solutions. $45.- for the hardware divided by 150 licenses = 30 cents per license. But of course there's that hen and egg problem. At least for us it works well, and it gives us the kind of flexibility to accommodate even individual cases of licensing, like a temporary license for 30 people for a LAN weekend. Yes, we have done that on some occasions. It leads to a very relaxed atmosphere between developer and customer. The legitimacy of unusual requests are not in doubt._________________________Visit the home of Steel Beasts!...the ultimate armor sim...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topi...tml#Post2704875Regards.Gus.

[Guest zzmikezz]

... [Mike's] numbers are not fact, but rather educated guesswork.

Educated guesswork indeed ...I have several concerns, one of them being about the little clubs that form around a guy who steals stuff for himself and his friends, and who then fronts for the group when somebody has a support issue.I'm toying with a novel way of delivering support that you can read about here http://www.pcgamecontrols.com/airbossblog/...c54a2d744aedeaa. I'm just ornery enough to want to make people SHOW me their problems rather than telling me about them. That way I'll be less inclined to think of them as club members.I'm actually more concerned about the support issues than I am about revenue loss. Time spent supporting pirated copies is time stolen from development -- or life -- or forum discussions like this one -- or pleasure flying -- or volunteering at the Colorado Railroad Musuem. (Yes, folks, this fall I'm going to learn to run a steam locomotive hands-on. :) )I want a way to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate support requests, and making somebody demo their problem for me may be just the ticket.What's your reaction? Would you let me install my product on your system using CrossLoop? (Ignore the fact that 95% of you would not want to even consider buying it.) How do others in this thread feel about that prospect?

[N400QW 205]

Let me first say that we've participated in so many piracy/antipiracy threads that have come to naught that I'm hesitent to participate in yet another.The postings run the gamut from string the pirates up on the first limb or conversly, string the greedy developers up on the first limb, to every legal and moral treatise that folks can imagine. :( In no case have we observed any suggestion or action by anyone anywhere that accomplished much more than a partial and short term slowdown of illegal use and/or distribution of all types of software. In the interest of economy of time and effort required for users to reiterate all that has been previously discussed let me suggest that we simply focus on facts and not imaginary or fictional "solutions".Fact A: The practice of theft and illegal distribution of stolen goods has been and is with us and is not going to cease.Fact B: Legal prosecutions and legal penalties are largely ineffective and expensive in terms of time and resources.Fact C: Secure Delivery Systems aimed at User Friendly interaction such as the F1 System have been at a disadvantage at the theft and distribution level.Fact D: The question that remains among FS Developers and FS users is what can be done to stop or cause extreme slowdown of this practice?From a previous post I've attempted to outline as "food for thought" an option for Commercial FS Developers to at least consider as a new paradigm in addition to existing copy protection/delivery systems:The overview is simplistic in concept and will prove difficult to impliment but will preserve User Friendly Delivery Systems such as the F1 Wrapper System.Imagine an FS Product which can detect a hack attempt and instantly render the underlying software unusable (read unfit for intended use).If a hacker obtains the product, attempts a hack, renders the product unusable (read unfit for its intended use) he is then at a disadvantage because he cannot distribute unusable (read unfit for its intended use) software.His only option would be to rewrite the underlying to software to restore it to a usable condition (read fit for its intended use). This something they are unwilling and incapable of doing.Legitimate Users would be uneffected by this paradigm because Legitimate Users do not attempt to hack their own software. :( This may well prove to be an effective solution to software theft and distribution.Why assume that FS Developers do not talk among themselves regarding piracy as well as the current state of the "FS Cottage Industry"?We also discuss the current state of the FS Community which of course is a seperate issue from piracy.It may surprise some to discover that we are able to walk and chew gum at the same time. :( I for one am not the least bit interested in "tracking pirates with the intent to prosecute" since that is expensive and ineffective.I'm also not one who wishes to cry and moan over the fact the theft exists.What I am interested in are creative/effective techniques which either slow down thieves progress, or stop them in their tracks.In the end there do exist a number of FS Developers who will likely cease operations not because they are moaning and groaning over theft but rather are finding that the ratio of work to reward is simply not worth their while. B)

[Guest zzmikezz]

... the ratio of work to reward is simply not worth their while. :(

Right -- I may not release at all. Anyway ...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxHi Ron, as usual nice to chat with you again. You may be tired of this discussion but I'm not -- at least not yet. Now ...You wrote "Imagine an FS Product which can detect a hack attempt and instantly render the underlying software unusable (read unfit for intended use)." I'd like to hear more about this. If it involves being online, why not simply go for the kind of subscription service that jwenting has been advocating that has become something of a norm in the game industry overall? (Garbled sentence but you know what I mean.)If it is being done offline, what assurances can you give that the crippling scheme will not harm the admittedly-pirate "customer's" machine? (And how can you be sure that you're not going to have false positives?) After all, remember the huge outcry when Sony started playing around with end users' machines when they thought they had detected license violations?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI'm not poo-poohing the idea, I just want more information. It would be great if there was an FS-industry-wide solution to this problem ... ... Er ... ... Well, there will never be a full solution, but an industry-wide betterment of the situation.

[N400QW 205]

Mike, the outline if implimented, is in addition to any secure delivery system currently available.In short, it is intended as an effective multilayered redundancy to the secure delivery system.Note: There is nothing in this outline that touches hardware period, full stop. A reread will reveal that the underlying software is rendered unusable.Again, this is "food for thought" folks and is offered to help folks think "outside the box" as it were......I'm not the resident expert in these matters and have outlined nothing more than what smarter folks than I have suggested in the past. :(

[Guest zzmikezz]

Mike, the outline if implimented, is in addition to any secure delivery system currently available. In short, it is intended as an effective multilayered redundancy to the secure delivery system.Note: There is nothing in this outline that touches hardware period, full stop. A reread will reveal that the underlying software is rendered unusable.Again, this is "food for thought" folks and is offered to help folks think "outside the box" as it were......I'm not the resident expert in these matters and have outlined nothing more than what smarter folks than I have suggested in the past. :(

In the Dark Ages (DOS) there was a terrific license-protected debugger named Plink. It was smart enough to detect when people were trying to crack the license scheme. However, it didn't modify either itself or the customer machine -- it simply refused to run without a valid key, and it refused to allow anybody to look inside it.But in the absence of an effective scheme like that for the FS community I'm still going to think about ways to try to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate support requests. I can afford to be creative in ways that you can't because I'm not trying to sell a large number of units and therefore would not have a large customer base. In other words, I can do things on a low volume basis that would be impractical for Eaglesoft, I do believe.

[Geofa 108]

Mike, the outline if implimented, is in addition to any secure delivery system currently available.In short, it is intended as an effective multilayered redundancy to the secure delivery system.Again, this is "food for thought" folks and is offered to help folks think "outside the box" as it were......I'm not the resident expert in these matters and have outlined nothing more than what smarter folks than I have suggested in the past. :(

Ron-I second your ideas...and not to get too deep-but it seems many analyze this situation with the idea that piracy sales are not really lost sales but just a bunch of kids who don't know any better having a good time.In my perspective-perhaps why the world is where it is right now. It used to be about right and wrong. Now it only seems to be about money.I like money as much as anyone else-but have always found if you do right vs. wrong it seems to come to you?!I know....hopelessly old fashioned at age 51...

[rightseater 0]

Hi Ron. I'd like to thank you for participating in the discussion. I've been doing my best to remind everyone to remain civilized, and I hope it stays that way because I believe we need to get all points of view on the table. In another forum you answered a few questions of mine regarding piracy, thank you by the way, and now I have another. I've noticed that with only one exception, everybody I know in the business is very tight lipped when I ask about the affect of piracy. I don't expect hard data, but I'm curious why that is. Please keep in mind that I don't doubt pirating has an impact, nor do I feel that your financials are any of my business, I'm just wondering if there is any way to better explain how much of an affect pirating has and how you've come to that conclusion. I still believe that some good could come of that. Sometimes a horror story can affect someone in a good way.

[N400QW 205]

Geof, I agree and concur. The conversations we've had have helped restore my faith in my fellows.The ideas I've attempted to outline are at the very least intriguing, and at their best, encouraging. :(