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PhilH

Virtual Memory.. uhhh what?!

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Hi,I'll start with the specs..nVidia GeForce 7600GS (AGP), 256mb mem.3GB of RAM on boardPentium 4 CPU (yes, I know...)That's about it.So here's my concern. In the task manager, FS9.EXE shows it's using a tiny 12 meg of my RAM at the moment... (yes it is minimized as I write this, the number is usually about 100 meg)The VIRTUAL memory size right now is 725 meg?! What the...? Under the performance tab, I'm using 1.44 GB of PAGE FILE!? (My page file settings are set to minimum 256 mb and max 256mb (I will explain why later).It also says in the boxes in the bottom.. Total physical mem.. about 3070 meg. Looks good.Available...1645 meg. Weird.. all of the MEM usages add up in the process tab are FAR from the difference of total-available.. hmmOdly enough 1645 meg + 1.44 gig is near my 3 gig of total RAM.. (why.. coincidence? 1.44 gig is the current PF size)Why is it paging stuff onto this slower memory (page files) instead of using the 3GB of RAM I have?! Windows DOES see this RAM, it's not that kind of issue..My page file size is set to 256 meg because I restarted about 12 times in one hour early, reading tutorials and info on VM.. I tried different sizes. Some sources say 1.5 times your RAM, but I thought, well, If I get rid of it completely, it will HAVE to use my physical RAM, right? Nope. I tried everything to get rid of page files, and after restarting even though it said no pf in the control panel, task manager always made some stuff up and I guess it was coming automatically, I can't get rid of it.I tried various numbers, but it seems to not change much. Even though I am set to 256 max and min, and it does say 256 meg allocated in control panel, it STILL says 1.44 gig of it being used right now (FS9 is idle,minimized) when I quit FS9, the PF goes down to about 700 meg, which is still absurd I think.I've been defragmenting super often, anti-virus-ing too, I don't think it's this.On a PMDG 747 flight last week-end, I got, ON FINAL APPROACH, an out of memory error, and FS will now quit. On VATSIM. That was a pain. :(Now having changed to 256meg of PF, I haven't got this error yet but I haven't really flown either. However earlier while FS was minimized, I got the little pop-up bubble from the task bar that windows was low on VM and will increase the PF size.One last thing to note.. the 1.44 gig currently used of PF is fo some reason halfway through the little gauge on the left. Which means full would be about 3GB, which is my physical RAM.. I am so confused.I wish I could eleminate PF completely and let FS9 run on my RAM instead of using only 0.01% of it and 99% of VM. What's going on?Thanks!Phil


Philippe Hewett

"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature."

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Phil,Have a look at this thread: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtop...6&hl=switchAll I can tell you is the '3GB swtich' is easy to apply and it has changed my fightsimming (VATSIM or offline) for good.No OOMs (Out of Memory) anymore. Give it a try, mate!
Thanks, I'll look at the thread, but the 3GB switch has always been on :( I just tested with it off earlier but there was no difference, it's now back on.I just tried something else, removing all PF from all disks.. but after restarting even though it says 0MB in the control panel, the task manager still says Im using 600mb of PF.. just after starting the machine. No FS or anything.Thanks again thoughEDIT: Wait a minute. I thought the 3GB switch was just in the boot.ini. That's all I have. Still reading the thread...

Philippe Hewett

"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature."

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I thought the 3GB switch was just in the boot.ini. That's all I have.
No, no , Phil. You have to perform the little operation on your FS9.exe, just like explained.The sole boot.ini will not be enough. Glad you've noticed that! :(

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No, no , Phil. You have to perform the little operation on your FS9.exe, just like explained.The sole boot.ini will not be enough. Glad you've noticed that! :(
Just did it :) And added a USERVA to the boot.ini, although Im not still sure what number to use.I tried a very short hop (all hand flown :() from seattle to paine field (4 minutes :() and I got slightly higher framerates and so far no OOM and no low memory bubbles! B) This week-end Ill try a long haul, and let you know, but in the mean time, THANKS! :(EDIT: page file still pretty large, even though its turned completely off, if anyone can let me know why?Also by the way, the VM usage of FS9 is now pretty much equal all the time to the mem usage.. yay!

Philippe Hewett

"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature."

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Hi Phil. I did not see it mentioned to you that the page file uses hard drive space not RAM, and the page file is needed by the OS, other programs and MSFS. It should always be on the same drive as the OS.If you desire more information search 'Nick Needam' or 'NickN' over at Simviation ( sorry just read their forum is down for maintainance ), however when it is back up you will find some very useful information and excellent tips regarding what you are doing. Here is a bit I found that I have as an example, but be sure to do your own research before you do anything. This is only a sample of what you'll find.===========================Browse to CONTROL PANEL - SYSTEM - ADVANCED TAB - PERFORMANCE BUTTON - ADVANCED TAB - VIRTUAL MEMORY – CHANGE BUTTON First we must clear the system of the old page file and build a new one. Select NO PAGING FILE, the SET and OK then APPLY. Close the System Properties box and you will be asked to reboot, select YES and reboot.In some cases the old page file will remain on the hard drive. We want to delete that file before we rebuild a new one. Go to C:\ and se if the following file is there in the root directory: pagefile.sysIf it is, right click and delete it.Browse to CONTROL PANEL - SYSTEM - ADVANCED TAB - PERFORMANCE BUTTON - ADVANCED TAB - VIRTUAL MEMORY – CHANGE BUTTON Rebuild the page file:Select the drive Windows is installed on in the top list, then...Place a bullet in CUSTOM SIZE then enter the following in BOTH MIN and MAX boxes: 3072The page file ALWAYS goes on the boot drive with WindowsXP. Never move it.Click SET then OK and the next box click APPLY and OK to close it.The system may ask you to reboot, select YES=====================================I'll say it again,......, don't do anything until you read the whole thing. Although you can set the Page file: "Place a bullet in CUSTOM SIZE then enter the following in BOTH MIN and MAX boxes: 3072 on your OS drive." Without that your 3G switch most likely will not work as expected. 3G = 3072Best regards,Mel


Mel

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Here is a excerpt of what I found by Nick Needam here on the AVSIM forums / MOBO, RAM, CPU's & Other Hardware section.Moving the page file nets absolutely nothing in performance with typical modern home/game systems. A server or other high memory demand application setup which has the real potential to exceed physical memory and the admin has correctly ascertained performance of the workstation is hindered by paging. Its only needed if the memory of the system in question may be overrun and the use demands a better, more optimized storage approach by placing the page file on a different volume, and, that volume is faster or equal to the OS partition.None the less any access of a mechanical volume page file kills perf, period. A typoical game system which has the right amount of physical memory installed will probably never access that file, nor will that page file size or location have any affect (positive or negative) on Windows or system performance unless the system runs out of available physical memoryIn those cases adding more memory is a much better option than a remote page file.There must be a minimum page file on the OS drive or diagnostics are not possible in the event of a crash and it must be a 4K allocation due to Windows VM Management allocates in 4K pages.Since WindowsXP SP2 no Windows install can be loaded onto partition with a allocation size of greater than 4K which was designed into Windows from XP-SP2 forwardWindows will refuse to boot after attempting to install on any volume greater than 4KThe system only needs a page file for diagnostics and program boot allocation when the system memory is well above the users max use. Some programs demand a page file be present when they are booted, most do not. Turning the page file completely off can be done but only after the proper assessment of the system use with applications. In those cases is still wise to leave a small page on the OS drive in the event of a crash so a minimum dump may occur. If a situation were to demand a page file move, Windows will always use the largest page volume first, which means leaving a smaller size on the OS drive allows crash dumps and that small area will not be used unless the larger file area is exhausted..Bottom line: Games and home systems, leave the page on the OS partition and either allow the SYSTEM MANAGED function or set STATIC which will reduce fragmentation of the file should it be used, which is rare3072-3072 is a very safe STATIC value and uless you are running A/V editing, scientific/engineering programs I doubt any more would ever be needed.Either way is fineIf a home or game user is running 2GB or less in this day and age, its a heck of a lot cheaper to buy more memory than its to run a poor application off mechanical disk page file.. as a matter of fact to do it that way is quite silly. It is better to increase the system memory than try and set up a page file on a faster external from the OS volumeFor those who would like more information about the VM/page and physical memory.. Mark Russinovich has a few of the best blog posts on the net about the subjecthttp://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/a...21/3092070.aspxhttp://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/a...17/3155406.aspxGame systems that have 4-6GB of PM would not require any pagefile tuningRegards,Mel


Mel

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The page file ALWAYS goes on the boot drive with WindowsXP. Never move it.
That's not whatMicrosoft says The paging file (Pagefile.sys) is a hidden file on your computer's hard disk that Windows XP uses as if it were random access memory (RAM). The paging file and physical memory make up virtual memory. By default, Windows stores the paging file on the boot partition (the partition that contains the operating system and its support files). The default paging file size is equal to 1.5 times the total RAM. However, this default configuration may not be optimal in all cases. This article discusses how to configure the paging file for system optimization and recovery.To enhance performance, it is good practice to put the paging file on a different partition and on a different physical hard disk drive. That way, Windows can handle multiple I/O requests more quickly. When the paging file is on the boot partition, Windows must perform disk reading and writing requests on both the system folder and the paging file. When the paging file is moved to a different partition, there is less competition between reading and writing requests. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314482

Gerry Howard

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That's not whatMicrosoft says The paging file (Pagefile.sys) is a hidden file on your computer's hard disk that Windows XP uses as if it were random access memory (RAM). The paging file and physical memory make up virtual memory. By default, Windows stores the paging file on the boot partition (the partition that contains the operating system and its support files). The default paging file size is equal to 1.5 times the total RAM. However, this default configuration may not be optimal in all cases. This article discusses how to configure the paging file for system optimization and recovery.To enhance performance, it is good practice to put the paging file on a different partition and on a different physical hard disk drive. That way, Windows can handle multiple I/O requests more quickly. When the paging file is on the boot partition, Windows must perform disk reading and writing requests on both the system folder and the paging file. When the paging file is moved to a different partition, there is less competition between reading and writing requests. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314482
Exactly MGH... I am always baffled at the misinformtation that is spread on this topic. You must ALWAYS have a small PF footprint on the boot partition. Once that is in place you can create another PF on a seperate HD. That is exactly what I have and have never had a problem. EVERY single one of my OS's use a seperate HD on a seperate controller for PF. I have a single Hard Drive dedicated to the PF's of all my OS's. And on the second drive it is just set to system managed... To the OP though, none of this has anything to do with your OOM. Just implement the /3gb switch AND modify your FS9.exe (I still did not read where the OP did that but maybe I missed the modifying the .exe part) Other than that, your only option is to upgrade to a 64 bit OS, it will be the best move you ever made. Just search on OOM or Out of Memory and you will find days worth of reading ;)-P

Have a Wonderful Day

-Paul Solk

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Exactly MGH... I am always baffled at the misinformtation that is spread on this topic.
Yes. And it's worrying that people may act on such misinformation.

Gerry Howard

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Yes. And it's worrying that people may act on such misinformation.
Absolutely... Could not agree more.-P

Have a Wonderful Day

-Paul Solk

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Absolutely... Could not agree more.-P
Some more useful advice from Microsoft."On the other hand, disk space is usually plentiful, so having a large pagefile (e.g. 1.5 times the installed RAM) does not cause a problem and eliminates the need to fuss over how large to make it."http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555223/en-us

Gerry Howard

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This is very interesting, two or more 'experts' have their opinions, information and facts that seem to work quite well. Two or more 'experts' have their opinions, information and facts that seem to work quite well. That does indeed make it difficult to distinguish between information and misinformation. So with due respect to all, I think I'll just duck and cover! :( Phil, please do take my advice and research all forums, and sources of info and decide for yourself what will work for YOU.Respect and regards to all,Mel


Mel

Flight Sim Addict

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Phil, please do take my advice and research all forums, and sources of info and decide for yourself what will work for YOU.
But don't forget to check what Microsoft says. It, after all, is the real expert.

Gerry Howard

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But don't forget to check what Microsoft says. It, after all, is the real expert.
Thank you for repeating what I have already written, "research all forums, and sources of info".Mel

Mel

Flight Sim Addict

:American Flag:

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