Anyone here refuse to fly online? If so, why?

[Chock 17,769]

But 2 years ago it wasn't and there was no proper 737 with FMC for FSX.What this meant was that i couldn't fly a 737 online in FSX, and was forced to fly long-haul if I wanted to stay realistic.

Yes there was, but it was pricey (still is) and made by a company that not everyone is exactly in love with. There was also the option to put the ISG FMC in the default FSX 737 too.Al

[protzler 0]

En-Route Center Controllers my friend.In the absense of a Tower Center Controller can cover every airport in that airspace. You don't need separate Controllers for ground and Tower when the traffic is light, you'd just have abunch of people sitting around doing nothing waiting for planes to come to them.Even the the real world, there are airports with no Ground Tower or approach to depart and arrive from them (IFR), you have to contact the Center.Now regarding your example flight from Picacho Stage Field.In the likely absense of PCA Tower you'd contact Albuqueque Center (assuming IFR). Center would give you your clearance, squawk code etc.Of course the Instructions will be realistic. The phraselogy would be exactly the same as if there was a Tower there.It'd just be given by the Center Controller.If you still disagree, I recommend you observe on IVAO/VATSIM and see it in practice.See my earlier mention of 'floating Controllers'.You move Controllers to different positions as they are needed, you allow them to work multiple positions at the same time.As I mentioned before in my early SATCO days, that what we did. I'd have one plane going into MSP, and anotherplane going into DEN. I'd just have 2 logins, and 2 ProController screen opens, and have each screencentered over MSP and DEN respectively. With 2 planes its not difficult to do at all.So lets sat you have 1 plane arriving at Memphis, no ATC there. The Controller working Albuquerque, who has maybe 2 overfights, he's not busy he's just watching 2 planes overfly his airspace, he won't even say anything to them for an hour when they reach his boundary end. He starts another session as a Controller in Memphis, and handles the arrival into Memphis while at the same time monitoring his 2 overflights, and will still have time to handle any departuresor arrivals into his airspace.If Albuquerque gets too busy with local activities to handle the KMEM arrival, there's another Center Controller somewhere who is not busy who he can hand him off to at any time.With floating Controllers you can handle all the traffic around the world with a small number of Controllers.All we need is a Controller Client that allows one Controller to view multiple airspaces and man multiple positionsat the same time. Not very difficult to accomplish from a programming standpoint.We'd also need some sort of notification system, so that as soon as a Flight Plan is filed or an aircraft is a certain distance from its arrival, the available Controllers are made aware that location will need ATC service for the pending departure or arrival. It needs some coordination for sure, but its certainly doable.Let me describe the notification concept further, using your PCA example.You file a flight plan. Once that happens the system checks if your departure has ATC coverage (ie at least a Center).If there is no ATC coverage currently for PCA. The system checks all the Center Controllers online in the US and makes a request to ones with none or a small number of aircraft assigned to them. If the Controller accepts the request he/she makes a new login as ABQ_CTR, and waits for your call requesting clarance. If the Controller declines the assigment requestthe system makes the request to next Center Controller etc. Once a Controller accepts the assignment, their ID shows upon your ATC list as ABQ_CTR with a frequency, and you are able to contact them for clearance.Regards.Ernie.

I understand what you mean, but I still don't think it'd be realistic (I'm a [military] controller in real life, as well as a pilot). My beloved PCA is an extreme, I realize that, but for our conversation it's valid. There are 5 lanes at PCA. 4 paved and 1 dirt. The dirt isn't visible from the tower (in real life...no idea about the sim), and so is only used in certain circumstances. About a quarter mile west (at most) of the tower is a gulch that is used for pop up training. It's called West Slopes. Things like these, at all airports (PCA is used simply because I know it) are things that controllers controlling that area should know. That being said, I do have to be realistic with my expectations. At smaller airports, things like that can be overlooked (hell, PCA is an advisory tower anyway!), At larger airports though, even if they're ghost towns (PIT for example), I would certainly expect them to know the little intricacies of the field. The sole reason for my demands of that are because I'd be paying (assuming the $20 dollar monthly fee) $120 a year for the service.As far as having one controller manning more than one position, I completely agree and think that's a great idea! Even at larger airports, I could see one person running all positions in the tower. The problem is that you're still going to need a ton of controllers to be able to give coverage to the entire world 24/7. The ONLY way I can see this being a realistic goal would be to still have some form of automated ATC just in case. Because it is inevitable that you'll have coverage gaps that aren't filled. I don't do VATSIM or IVAO. I used to do SATCO along with you, and it was a lot of fun! One day I would be SEA_CTR and the next DAL_APP. I was a controller 3 and loved every minute of it. I would observe on one of them, however I'm in Iraq, and the internet here is atrocious. I'm capped at 30kb/sec, hahaha.I hope you're able to work something out. I like your idea! I just think it needs a little fine tuning.

[PIC007 82]

Ernie, I am simply explaining the reality of a paid subscription service, based on 13 years of experiance managing one. As soon as you start charging money, you are in a legally binding contract, and using voulnteer servers, bandwidth, personel, etc just won't work. However I do hope sincerely that someone could put all this together. I spent almost 2 years working with a team to do almost exactly what is proposed, and after all that time and research, the owner pulled the plug because the ROI just wasnt there. Best of luck, I'm off to fly on a server a very generous person has provided for us :(

[ErnieAlston 33]

I understand what you mean, but I still don't think it'd be realistic (I'm a [military] controller in real life, as well as a pilot). My beloved PCA is an extreme, I realize that, but for our conversation it's valid. There are 5 lanes at PCA. 4 paved and 1 dirt. The dirt isn't visible from the tower (in real life...no idea about the sim), and so is only used in certain circumstances. About a quarter mile west (at most) of the tower is a gulch that is used for pop up training. It's called West Slopes. Things like these, at all airports (PCA is used simply because I know it) are things that controllers controlling that area should know.

You can have cheat sheets for this (enter airport id and cheat sheet appears).These cheat sheets would provide pertinent information for various airports.You don't need to know everything about the field, only what would significant for theController to know. Like if there was an obstruction nearby that might alter a normaltakeoff.Over time a database of these cheat sheets would be available, as members added informationthey know about a particular airport.An example might be something like this for Albuquerque (KABQ)"Rwy 8 departures, no straight out departures , instruct mandatory turns, to heading 320 or 180 after takeoff.Keep it short simple, and to the point, provide just the necessary info. This way any rated Controller can plug in to any airport and handle traffic there with only a short briefingrequired.

The sole reason for my demands of that are because I'd be paying (assuming the $20 dollar monthly fee) $120 a year for the service.

The original suggestion was $20-$25 per year, not per month.Also starting out the Service doesn't have to cover the entire world 24/7. It can start smaller like maybe Europe and the North America. It certainly would need to time to see what ideas/theories actually work or don't work in practice.Regards.Ernie.

[ErnieAlston 33]

Ernie, I am simply explaining the reality of a paid subscription service, based on 13 years of experiance managing one. As soon as you start charging money, you are in a legally binding contract, and using voulnteer servers, bandwidth, personel, etc just won't work.

All that matters is that service agreed to is provided.Its irrelevent whether some of it is provided by volunteers.But really this is all pie in the sky right now, unless someone with some resourcesbacks the concept.I just tried to point out there are ways to improve upon how it is currently done. That wouldaddress reasons why many do not participate in online ATC (in particular, software and ATC staffing gaps).RegardsErnie.

[Squishy 0]

Yes there was, but it was pricey (still is) and made by a company that not everyone is exactly in love with. There was also the option to put the ISG FMC in the default FSX 737 too.Al

I assume you mean Ariadne? The 737 also didn't work for me with FScopilot. Same problem btw - dark gauges and unclickable buttons

[Stigged 0]

I use online flight occaisionally, but other than that, meh. Reasons:1. You get booted quite a lot, even if you have done nothing wrong (I always read the rules). :(2. Can't change planes. :angry:3. Crash collision is disabled.4. Spammers.5. Bullies.6. ATC is realistic, but if your a free flier, a complete waste of time. It ruins your freedom. ; )7. Events are mostly boring. *yawns* :Sleepy:Sometimes you get , and there is an event you like. Mostly though, MP is a complete waste of a precious resource called Time.

[Kosta 122]

I use online flight occaisionally, but other than that, meh. Reasons:1. You get booted quite a lot, even if you have done nothing wrong (I always read the rules). :(2. Can't change planes. :angry:3. Crash collision is disabled.4. Spammers.5. Bullies.6. ATC is realistic, but if your a free flier, a complete waste of time. It ruins your freedom. ; )7. Events are mostly boring. *yawns* :Sleepy:Sometimes you get , and there is an event you like. Mostly though, MP is a complete waste of a precious resource called Time.

1. Happens to me only when I leave the cockpit unanttended and ATC is try to get a hold of me.2. Why would you want to do that inside of one flight?3. No it's not (to my knowledge) - that is why I have it disabled in the FSX.4. There are none that I could find5. Sure, here and there - but you report them and they get booted (maybe you are a bullie?? :( )6. You can also fly free, VFR is not prohibited7. Oh really? I guess you never participated on a big event like Heathrow Overload, Vienna Flyin, Frankfurt... I guess not. And that with a VA, where you have all of you over Teamspeak? Fully staffed airports? Boring... yeah.

[trisager 2]

I think "Stigged" may be referring to the FSX multiplayer feature, not Vatsim.

[Stigged 0]

I think "Stigged" may be referring to the FSX multiplayer feature, not Vatsim.

Thanks. BTW, you can call me Ben as well. Just refer to my Aboutme.

(maybe you are a bullie?? :( )

No. Anyway, let's just not start a flamewar.

No it's not (to my knowledge) - that is why I have it disabled in the FSX.

Weird- in FSX MP, I just bounce off the water/land.

Why would you want to do that inside of one flight?

It's called experimentation... :(

[Squishy 0]

It's called experimentation... :(

What? You can't even switch a plane properly (i.e. pmdg to level-d) unless you fly cessna's only?!

[trisager 2]

What? You can't even switch a plane properly (i.e. pmdg to level-d) unless you fly cessna's only?!

Not sure about FSX multiplayer, I've never used it much.On VATSIM I'll usually start FSX, load the trike, switch to the plane I want to fly, then connect to the network. I'm not sure if connecting with the trike loaded and then switching to the Level-D or PMDG is supported, but keep in mind that disconnecting and reconnecting to Vatsim only takes a couple of seconds. It is a non-issue.VATSIM is entirely different from FSX multiplayer.

[Kosta 122]

No. Anyway, let's just not start a flamewar.

Let's not. That was uncalled for. Sorry.

Weird- in FSX MP, I just bounce off the water/land.

I thought it was about VATSIM. On the VATSIM, crash works, I can crash into ground as I can crash with other aircraft. Thus the reason for disabling it, to prevent some ** noob from crashing into me and making me start all over again (it happened couple of times).

It's called experimentation... :(

Ah well... can do that offline too, can't you? :(

[Gary A 8]

It is a catch-twenty-two, ATC does not control because there is no traffic; and there is no traffic because there is no ATC :( I was very fortunate in my lifetime on VATSIM, to have trained and flown under the guidance of several real-world ATC's and ATP's. In addition to teaching me how to control, they taught me how to fly. They would let me practice holds, and procedure turns and various approaches including PAR approaches till my heart’s content, while providing quick and succinct correction to my errors. There was no loss of freedom in my experiences and I could do as I pleased as long as I was not interfering with anyone else which would have been a seldom occurrence. I always fly on VATSIM, however, if I run into a particularly poor controller I will simply hit the disconnect button. I have little patience when I am setup to land based on information obtained from real-world source on active runways, i.e. http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca/cgi-bin/CreePage.pl?Langue=anglais&NoSession=NS_Inconnu&Page=rb&TypeDoc=html and http://www.liveatc.net/ only to have some TWR-controller trying to give me some other runway because he just popped on.Good ATC, is instructive and informative and never restrictive. I think sometimes we let our own egos get in the way and are simply afraid to make errors or mistakes, or we fail to understand that ATC are not the bosses of the sky, there only function is to assist in maintaining separation. Heck I remember the days of aiming my plane at an airport and neither they (ATC) nor I knew where in the heck I was going to end up. They (ATC) and I would just laugh.VATSIM, provided me some of the best experiences of my life for which I am truly grateful and will never forget.Now you want to talk about restrictive flying...join a VA. Only fly this plane, only these routes, only on these days yada-yada-yada. I fly where, where how, what and why; when I want how I want where I want.Vatsim Stats:Type Hours Pilot 2647:50 Controller 594:05 Observer 15:09

[Stigged 0]

Let's not. That was uncalled for. Sorry.I thought it was about VATSIM. On the VATSIM, crash works, I can crash into ground as I can crash with other aircraft. Thus the reason for disabling it, to prevent some ** noob from crashing into me and making me start all over again (it happened couple of times).Ah well... can do that offline too, can't you? :(

All of that outlined in my list was about the integral Gamespy network. VATSIM is for professionals. Gamespy is mostly used by kids, as outlined in someone else's post.Example:In VATSIM, you find VA meets and pilots (the massive heavies), professional pilots, real-life and wannabe ATC-ers, and the occaisional pleasure pilots and noobs (GA). In Gamespy, you see noobs, kids, and those who just fly for fun. (e.g virtual aerobatics squadrons, GA planes and fleets of F15s/F14s/F18s who attack you, as outlined in someone else's post).Hope that clears up the fog, Ben.