So what would be an accurate way to simulate a real flight without an FMC, say, with the default 737? Just plan a VOR to VOR flight at FL330 and leapfrog VORs all the way until your destination?

Basically, yes. You would file your flight plan using jet airways and tune in each VOR and its corresponding radial for that airway and fly VOR to VOR.

How do u make the VOR waypoints show up on GPS then?

The database built into the GPS unit itself has the coordinates for the land-based navaids. You would just enter the VOR's identifier and the GPS knows where it is regardless of whether or not you have the frequency tuned into your NAV radio.

From the VOR's how do you transition to an ILS landing?

In some cases you would be given vectors from an air traffic controller to join the final approach course after you've reached a certain point on the arrival. In other cases the controller would just clear you to a specific fix on the instrument approach or, in a few cases, the instrument approach may share a common waypoint with the STAR (Standard Terminal Arrival Route) you are flying on and it would be a seamless transition from the enroute phase to the arrival and final approach phases.

How does that work exactly? You could be at a couple different places if it was only based off of DME.

It's also worth noting that the older FMCs don't use any GPS signals so they can pick up DME readings from up to 5 stations. This information, in conjunction with the IRS info and CADC (Central Air Data Computer) info, is all fed into the FMC to determine the aircraft's position.

If the FMS didn't know anything else, DME/DME will give two possible positions. However, I input a starting location into the box during preflight, so it has an idea of which of the two should be correct. And from there, it continues to use the solution which is closest to where it thinks it should be. If GPS fails, DME/DME is next in line, followed by VOR/DME, and finally its own Ded Reckoning for position.

Oh ok I see what you are saying. I thought you meant it found itself solely off of DME and didn't have anything else to aid it.

True, but consider airline operations: In the end, don't they still use IRS as their main source (alright, which is fed by GPS and DME/DME or other updates as described above, at least not by manually tuning anything)? I am asking because, say they fly their SID and continune on their route. This route usually consists of some classic navaids but especially nowadays, even more waypoints. Be it 'classic' waypoints defined as PBD or radial/radial, or just 'arbitrary' points made up of any possible lat/lon. I suspect that wouldn't even make a difference to the system, since it would treat every fix as a lat/lon pair, not a bearing/distance.I am pretty sure pilots don't constantly tune in the 'relevant' navaids at all. They do for the SID and obviously for the approach. But during cruise, in fact the only thing I see them do is adjust their heading bug to match the current heading after a turn (talking 737NG here btw... might vary for others), they say it's for when they get some unexpected ATC instruction or the like and need to cancel LNAV. Still - since also the classic navaids will most likely be a lat/lon pair in the FMC database (plus a freq data entry), I suspect it doesn't even make any difference to the FMC at all? I mean, be it any waypoint or a navaid, I just assume the FMC treats it all the same pretty much, as long as you're LNAVing from SID to STAR. Of course, the DME/DME updates might be running in the background, but they don't neccessarily have to be navaids on the route. Correct? And sorry for this confused post. :(

When we fly it is GPS direct for about 700 miles. Makes it pretty easy haha.

True, but consider airline operations: In the end, don't they still use IRS as their main source (alright, which is fed by GPS and DME/DME or other updates as described above, at least not by manually tuning anything)?

If GPS information is available, the FMS would still use that first as its primary source for navigation and then revert to the radio (DME) or IRS information for position updating if all GPS data becomes unavailable. This is at least true for the FMS systems that I'm familiar with.

I am pretty sure pilots don't constantly tune in the 'relevant' navaids at all. They do for the SID and obviously for the approach. But during cruise, in fact the only thing I see them do is adjust their heading bug to match the current heading after a turn (talking 737NG here btw... might vary for others), they say it's for when they get some unexpected ATC instruction or the like and need to cancel LNAV. Still - since also the classic navaids will most likely be a lat/lon pair in the FMC database (plus a freq data entry), I suspect it doesn't even make any difference to the FMC at all? I mean, be it any waypoint or a navaid, I just assume the FMC treats it all the same pretty much, as long as you're LNAVing from SID to STAR. Of course, the DME/DME updates might be running in the background, but they don't neccessarily have to be navaids on the route. Correct? And sorry for this confused post. :(

This is true. And like you said, unless you're flying an approach that uses a land-based navaid (VOR, ILS, NDB), you wouldn't have to tune in any VOR frequency enroute if you didn't want to.

When we fly it is GPS direct for about 700 miles. Makes it pretty easy haha.

I hear ya :( LOL

If GPS information is available, the FMS would still use that first as its primary source for navigation and then revert to the radio (DME) or IRS information for position updating if all GPS data becomes unavailable. This is at least true for the FMS systems that I'm familiar with.This is true. And like you said, unless you're flying an approach that uses a land-based navaid (VOR, ILS, NDB), you wouldn't have to tune in any VOR frequency enroute if you didn't want to.

Thanks. So after all the base source is still GPS, assuming everything is running healthy, plus the (LNAV'ed) route will be flown that way. Kinda makes sense! :(

Here's what I found for KSFO-KLAX (United 274)KSFOOrigin Airport37.6189722-122.3748889 WAGESReporting Point36.9910278-121.7370556 ARTCC Boundary Crossing35.7483889-120.1080556 AVEVOR-TAC (NAVAID)35.6469722-119.9786111 AVEVOR-TAC (NAVAID)35.6469722-119.9786111 DERBBReporting Point35.2558889-119.6414444 REYESReporting Point34.6587222-119.1343333 PIRUEReporting Point34.4967500-118.9983333 FIMVOR-TAC (NAVAID)34.3566944-118.8812778 GINNAReporting Point34.2229722-118.8320833 SYMONReporting Point34.1650833-118.8108333 SADDEReporting Point34.0390000-118.7646389 BAYSTReporting Point34.0296389-118.6636667 SMOVOR-DME (NAVAID)34.0102500-118.4567222 JAVSIComputer Nav Fix34.0285000-118.2775000 KLAXThe thing is, the flight plan shown on the home page for this flight was PORTE3 AVE SADDE6. What is the difference? Is PORTE3 the airway used before AVE, and SADDE6 the airway after AVE? What is a reporting point? Is it a VOR intersection?In the default GPS, if you load an airway flight, are the waypoints already programed in to the GPS? Or do u have to manually add them in? If so, HOW do you add them in? :(

Here's what I found for KSFO-KLAX (United 274)KSFOOrigin Airport37.6189722-122.3748889 WAGESReporting Point36.9910278-121.7370556 ARTCC Boundary Crossing35.7483889-120.1080556 AVEVOR-TAC (NAVAID)35.6469722-119.9786111 AVEVOR-TAC (NAVAID)35.6469722-119.9786111 DERBBReporting Point35.2558889-119.6414444 REYESReporting Point34.6587222-119.1343333 PIRUEReporting Point34.4967500-118.9983333 FIMVOR-TAC (NAVAID)34.3566944-118.8812778 GINNAReporting Point34.2229722-118.8320833 SYMONReporting Point34.1650833-118.8108333 SADDEReporting Point34.0390000-118.7646389 BAYSTReporting Point34.0296389-118.6636667 SMOVOR-DME (NAVAID)34.0102500-118.4567222 JAVSIComputer Nav Fix34.0285000-118.2775000 KLAXThe thing is, the flight plan shown on the home page for this flight was PORTE3 AVE SADDE6. What is the difference? Is PORTE3 the airway used before AVE, and SADDE6 the airway after AVE? What is a reporting point? Is it a VOR intersection?

What you are looking at is actually the route "PORTE3 AVE SADDE6" just expanded to include the waypoint names and the lat/longs. First, I greyed out the extraneous information and highlighted just the relevant information. The term "Reporting Point" you see in the text is just referring to a waypoint along the route as opposed to a VOR-TAC or VOR-DME. The first waypoint you see along this route is WAGES and that is found on the PORTE3 Departure Procedure (DP) out of KSFO. Here's that chart:KSFO PORTE3 DPThe next waypoint is the AVE VOR and I've underlined it just to signify that it is a common waypoint for both the PORTE3 and the SADDE6 (Standard Terminal Arrival) STAR into KLAX. Here's that chart:KLAX SADDE6 STARYou will find the red waypoints DERBB, REYES,FIM, SYMON, etc. on the SADDE6 arrival. The two waypoints underlined in blue (PIRUE, GINNA) are not on the arrival charts themselves but still exist along the route the aircraft is flying so they still appear in this long string of data. The SADDE6 arrival is actually superimposed, so to speak, on a portion of V107. You can find those waypoints on the low altitude enroute chart here:PIRUE on V107

In the default GPS, if you load an airway flight, are the waypoints already programed in to the GPS? Or do u have to manually add them in? If so, HOW do you add them in? :(

You can use the Flight Planner in MSFS to plan your flight between KSFO and KLAX but it is not using the same route as what is shown here. It will generate a usable route way all the necessary waypoints but you are not able to program in the PORTE3 AVE SADDE6. You would need an addon GPS like the GNS430 or 530 from RealityXP to program a route like this.

So a jet airway is simply a high-flying VOR-to-VOR route? I suspect there's more to airways than that :(

So a jet airway is simply a high-flying VOR-to-VOR route? I suspect there's more to airways than that :(

A jetway is just a direct route from one waypoint to another. When both waypoints are VORs as is often the case, then yes, what you say is correct.Cheers,- jahman.

So a jet airway is simply a high-flying VOR-to-VOR route? I suspect there's more to airways than that :(

Nope that is all they are.http://skyvector.com/?ll=45.960651542367266,-120.94334352945833&chart=441&zoom=5

In the UK the extremities of airway are defined by its co-ordinates. Sometimes they are at a VOR but that's not universal, and in some cases impossible. One extremity of UL9 is KONAN which is in the North Sea marking the boundary of UK airspace. It continues as U607 in Belgian airspace

Nope that is all they are.http://skyvector.com...hart=441&zoom=5

Can anyone give me step-by-step instructions for building and flying an airway flight in FS9? I understand how to plan an airway flight (click "airways"), but I'm lost once you actually have to fly it.

Can anyone give me step-by-step instructions for building and flying an airway flight in FS9? I understand how to plan an airway flight (click "airways"), but I'm lost once you actually have to fly it.

You'll either have to use the GPS/FMS or learn to navigate VOR to VOR (and other navaids used). I also suggest learning to read IFR Enroute/VFR Sectional charts and Terminal Charts/Approach Plates... I'm assuming you know the basics about VORs? If not, you're missing one of the most basic fundamentals in navigation and I suggest further reading (it's fun)! I learned VOR navigation when I was 11 years old from the FS2000 Flying Handbook. If I could teach myself then, anyone can do it!I'm not about to write a step by step, as those can easily be found by searching yourself. Don't worry, I'm sure someone else will! Have you checked out the The AVSIM Flight School forum here? It's got some cool stuff in there. Here's what 10 seconds of searching found me on Youtube (it's not too bad, actually):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f67low6D-T0Good luck!