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Will Flight Hurt FSX Addon Vendors?

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Most would possibly agree that the quality and longevity of FSX is, in large measure, due to the array of addons (free and pay) that have emerged over the years. It took Microsoft management awhile to allow an SDK. They seemed focused on the success of the closed Apple model. Once the SDKs appeared wonderful addons showed up and it was like getting a new product.Now we are faced with an allegedly closed product as a follow-on to FSX. This presents some problems for those loyal addon producers. If a sizable number of FSX users move to Flight the customer base remaining for FSX will shrink. The authors will see no opportunity to move their wares to the closed Flight and may shutter their virtual shops. This will dry-up the addon products and FSX will simply die on the vine as the remaining base seeks a richer flight simulator environment. In-other-words Flight may become responsible for ruining FSX.

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From what I have seen of Flight I will be looking at more 3rd party addons for FSX.

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Flight would not have hurt these guys http://cerasimaircraft.com/ Cerasim's business was stolen by those too cowardly to pay for the hard work of others. Leaches. What is hurting the industry is thieves. Great companies are not immune to this. Lots of "free" payware. Payware is being downloaded at a rate that cannot be measured. Flight's download model would have helped Cerasim who made very nice products. So nice they went broke from people stealing it. What sales are lost from stealing? The free ride should stop so developers can make money and produce more product. If Flight pays the vendors the proper amount, they will help. At least the vendor's product does not end up as Little Johnny's or Job Slob's "freeware".

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Did I miss the announcement that Flight will contain a virus that will permanently destroy all copies of FSX? FSX and all the add-ons available for it currently will work just fine. Now it may be that in the fullness of time enough people will migrate away from FSX (though probably not to Flight) that it becomes no longer economically attractive to develop new add-ons for FSX, but everything there is will remain in working condition. If that ruins FSX for you, then perhaps you should ask yourself why you can only be content with a program if it gives you a shiny new add-on to play with every month.Mozart will never write another note of music, but that doesn't ruin what he did compose.But if it gives you any piece of mind, both Orbx and PMDG have announced they will be developing for FSX for the forseeable future.

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Piracy has been an annoyance for as long as I have used computers (1985). Still the gaming industry has never been more succesful than it is today.

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Probably not. With current information about Flight I could see it to have future as simulator/game focused more on general aviation flying than really airliners. And also big amount of people who fly GA like to do it much in areas they know in real life, which would probably make amount of people who move completely from FSX to Flight even smaller.I believe that FSX community will stay very alive for several years.

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If a man is cut and bleeding, trying to control the injury is better than watching him bleed to death like Cerasim has been bled to death by thieft. At least they would of had a fighting chance. Leaving your candy bowl uncovered at a party insures it will be emptied verses putting it somewhere it is harder to get at. Cerasim did not have the funds to provide protective infrastructure for their product. Big pockets Flight can provide such for the small guy. Orbx as their own system not needing Flight's on line store. Regardless, in the case of Cerasim, Flight would have been of help in that situation. So my reply to the topic, in some cases Flight will help. I do not know what Flight collects for commission for selling products, so I do not know if their business model will hurt developers.

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Guest jahman
It took Microsoft management awhile to allow an SDK. They seemed focused on the success of the closed Apple model.
Remember Microsoft today is what it is thanks to an open business miodel: You don't have to pay MS for the apps you run under windows, or the documents you create under Word, or Excel, etc.If MS did extremely well on an open model, why switch to a closed model now with Flight?Cheers,- jahman.

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Who says that its all good?
It's only good if you don't want to stifle creativity in software development. Startups can barely afford to keep the lights on in many cases...if they are looking at a closed computer model where MS skims profits through a forced participation in the Windows store, where MS wants to own your IP and therefore your product and brand.... well then, if you understand markets and barriers to entry, many will think the cost of entry is too high. We do not want monopolies here... where the main consumer platform being Windows, you are forced to essentially merge with Microsoft in order to develop for the major consumer operating system.This doesn't just apply to startups either...can you imagine MS forcing Google to only allow for instance, Google Earth through the windows store, giving them the rights to their IP? Yeah RIGHT!If that model comes into play full force, you can expect that to trigger all sorts of anti-trust litigation, and rightly so...

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It's only good if you don't want to stifle creativity in software development. Startups can barely afford to keep the lights on in many cases...if they are looking at a closed computer model where MS skims profits through a forced participation in the Windows store, where MS wants to own your IP and therefore your product and brand.... well then, if you understand markets and barriers to entry, many will think the cost of entry is too high. We do not want monopolies here... where the main consumer platform being Windows, you are forced to essentially merge with Microsoft in order to develop for the major consumer operating system.This doesn't just apply to startups either...can you imagine MS forcing Google to only allow for instance, Google Earth through the windows store, giving them the rights to their IP? Yeah RIGHT!If that model comes into play full force, you can expect that to trigger all sorts of anti-trust litigation, and rightly so...
Agree wth you to a point, big time dev. making addons for FSX like PMG or Orbx may not agree with MS's rules, can't blame them for running their business the way they want to, BUT if these devs. don't make addons for Flight (if the demand is there) for what ever their reasons are you can bet that smaller guys (good artist) struggling to make ends meet will take their place and become very good, no one was born as an addon developer, they had to learn to do it.

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Agree wth you to a point, big time dev. making addons for FSX like PMG or Orbx may not agree with MS's rules, can't blame them for running their business the way they want to, BUT if these devs. don't make addons for Flight (if the demand is there) for what ever their reasons are you can bet that smaller guys (good artist) struggling to make ends meet will take their place and become very good, no one was born as an addon developer, they had to learn to do it.
Very true.... Flight will succeed if we can have a "re-birth" of Flight Simulation addon developers. Who knows? Maybe the next great addon artist has yet to come.... :(

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BUT if these devs. don't make addons for Flight (if the demand is there) for what ever their reasons are you can bet that smaller guys (good artist) struggling to make ends meet will take their place and become very good, no one was born as an addon developer, they had to learn to do it.
You're right. Anyway the development will continue!

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Agree wth you to a point, big time dev. making addons for FSX like PMG or Orbx may not agree with MS's rules, can't blame them for running their business the way they want to, BUT if these devs. don't make addons for Flight (if the demand is there) for what ever their reasons are you can bet that smaller guys (good artist) struggling to make ends meet will take their place and become very good, no one was born as an addon developer, they had to learn to do it.
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that somebody will end up developing add-ons. If they are to the same level that we have remains to be seen.However, I wasn't referring to just the flight sim genre, but to Microsoft Windows as a development platform for all genres of software. Meaning....for instance, if you could no longer go to cnet's download.com and download and install your own freeware, trial-ware etc.. Or as a small time developer (which I would guess many 3pd for FSX fall into this category, i.e. they are not Adobe etc) you had to give up your source code and 30% of your profits in order to code for the Windows OS...that would essentially block many developers from getting out of the starting gate,Another couple of examples....NetBeans or Eclipse (amazing freeware alternatives to MS Visual Studio development environmen)t, or Open and LibreOffice (open source alternatives to MS Office)... open source will largely go away if all software is forced to be distributed via a closed Windows Store model if they are forced to release under a non-open source license. I really hope it doesn't come to this...but the fact that all "metro" style applications that are distributed for Windows 8 will have to be distributed via the Windows Store does not bode well, And before someone asks, no I've never worked for Microsoft, but I have developed for Windows since Win 3.0, using all apis from C/C++ win32 to .NET to web. This IMHO represents a stifling change to future windows development. Changes that have much larger consequences to the software industry than just for flight simulator.http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/windows-8-app-store-will-be-the-only-source-of-metro-apps/14873

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I hear what you are saying, and I agree that somebody will end up developing add-ons. If they are to the same level that we have remains to be seen.However, I wasn't referring to just the flight sim genre, but to Microsoft Windows as a development platform for all genres of software. Meaning....for instance, if you could no longer go to cnet's download.com and download and install your own freeware, trial-ware etc.. Or as a small time developer (which I would guess many 3pd for FSX fall into this category, i.e. they are not Adobe etc) you had to give up your source code and 30% of your profits in order to code for the Windows OS...that would essentially block many developers from getting out of the starting gate,Another couple of examples....NetBeans or Eclipse (amazing freeware alternatives to MS Visual Studio development environmen)t, or Open and LibreOffice (open source alternatives to MS Office)... open source will largely go away if all software is forced to be distributed via a closed Windows Store model if they are forced to release under a non-open source license. I really hope it doesn't come to this...but the fact that all "metro" style applications that are distributed for Windows 8 will have to be distributed via the Windows Store does not bode well, And before someone asks, no I've never worked for Microsoft, but I have developed for Windows since Win 3.0, using all apis from C/C++ win32 to .NET to web. This IMHO represents a stifling change to future windows development. Changes that have much larger consequences to the software industry than just for flight simulator.http://www.zdnet.com...etro-apps/14873
Point taken but again, what's stopping one dev. to open another addon business on the side and make addons for Flight.....what ever they will make under what ever rules MS as in place is money they did not have before....like I said if the big fish are not ready to do it somebody else who's barely making money as an addon developer will gladly take their place if the deal is good enough for them.

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They have "in house" developers ready to go now. Without them Flight's landscape would not exist. I would guess the size of the team may take a bit of time to do the globe. I do not think it is a question of who will do the work, alainneedle 1 wisely stated Quote: "like I said if the big fish are not ready to do it somebody else who's barely making money as an addon developer will gladly take their place if the deal is good enough for them." end Quote. I think it will be a question of how long to create large landmasses. The tubeliner / Vatsim / on line global fliers are the ones to please the most. How expensive, how fast, how plentiful. Maybe this will span an entirely new generation of developers sub financed by Microsoft. Microsoft is so tight lipped in how this all works we are bashing our heads against the wall speculating what is :( what :( I just realized I went off topic sorry.

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The only way that FLIGHT will affect the pockets of FSX develeopers is if MS actually produces exactly what the 3rd party developers have been producing in terms of quality and selection. If you see MS put out aircraft pacakges that rival the stuff Wilco, PMDG or Carenado makes, then those companies are in danger of going out of business..........BUT.......they still have hope left. MS would still have to be able to single handedly put out the selection of airports and sceneries made available by the big names in that department such as OrbX, Flytampa, FSDreamteam, etc. And it actually doesn't stop there........MS will have to make sure it has an FSUIPC replacement so that everyone's gear works........anything from generic yokes to those fancy interface cards people buy. How about VATSIM? AI? Is MS going to cater to the changing aircraft, airlines and flightplans that the world of ai installations require? If MS can muster all that development, it would surely gather the interest and hope, and people would jump over to FLIGHT. 3rd party developers would absolutely go out of business quickly. BUT..............what are the chances that MS can pull off the development that at least six big houses have poured into FS9, FSX over the past 5+ years or so? Are they reallly that serious about FLIGHT? Wasn't the idea to get these FLIGHT initiates to buy FSX? How serious and dedicated to Flight Simulator does one believe MS still is? I say they are nowhere near prepared to take on the task mentioned above.............unless perhaps Orbx and PMDG were the ONLY ones to back out and other outfits caved in to their demands.My prediction.........FLIGHT will NEVER put 3rd party devleopers out of business...........possibly a different simulator with a different company behind it. FLIGHT will never amount to anything unless they release an SDK. If people honestly believe that the same people who have this idea that if you find FLIGHT entertaining and want to step it up you can buy a copy of FSX are going to produce the quality, caliber and selection of the big houses.................that is something I highly doubt will happen.

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Not so fast Ricardo, if Flight is to have a very good engine free of bugs like popping autogen, stutters, CTD and good FPS +++ using today's hardware I'm in, don't care what I had before or how much I spent on addons, give me California, the Rockies or Florida for sale in the store to start with (since Hawaii is free) and I'll be a happy camper.As I said in an old post of mine (confirmed by JV) the developers involved with Flight told MS what to do to make Flight a better sim., for them not to repeat the same mistake as seen in FSX, look at the hardware needed to run Flight to the max, what for ....an arcade game...naaaaa....so from there I'm welling to wait and buy the first scenery or plane available from the store to test the water (will I need a Goose to do that.. :( ) knowing I won't have to deal with tweaks from the flight.CFG folder.Will the first Flight addons be as good as the FSX one from the big fish....don't know, but after MS worked with 3PD for 1 to 2 years and saw what they were able to do I'm welling to bet that MS will not settle for half a$$ addons to be sold in their store, if I look at what they have released so far vid. and pics. I think they are on the right track, remember that MS stated that all the vid. and pics. released to the public were all from the game itself.... not bad at all if you ask me.More to come.....

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Not so fast Ricardo, if Flight is to have a very good engine free of bugs like popping autogen, stutters, CTD and good FPS +++ using today's hardware I'm in, don't care what I had before or how much I spent on addons, give me California, the Rockies or Florida for sale in the store to start with (since Hawaii is free) and I'll be a happy camper.As I said in an old post of mine (confirmed by JV) the developers involved with Flight told MS what to do to make Flight a better sim., for them not to repeat the same mistake as seen in FSX, look at the hardware needed to run Flight to the max, what for ....an arcade game...naaaaa....so from there I'm welling to wait and buy the first scenery or plane available from the store to test the water (will I need a Goose to do that.. He%20He.gif ) knowing I won't have to deal with tweaks from the flight.CFG folder.Will the first Flight addons be as good as the FSX one from the big fish....don't know, but after the dev. and MS worked with 3PD for 1 to 2 years and saw what they were able to do I'm welling to bet that MS will not settle for half a$$ addons to be sold in their store, if I look at what they have released so far vid. and pics. I think they are on the right track, remember that MS stated that all the vid. and pics. released to the public were all from the game itself.... not bad at all if you ask me.More to come.....
I'm not a fan of FSX...........I've been using FS9 since it's release day to the present moment for the very reasons you stated, particularly its performance on today's hardware. I don't even own a copy. I've tested it many a time when putting together systems for firends or clients. With that said, MS has some serious work ahead in terms of producing enough add-ons of the same or better caliber that are out there for FSX.........I honestly do not believe most FSX users would jump over to FLIGHT unless that was the case. I can be wrong as I already have been manyl a time, but I do not believe MS has the desire or motivation to devleop like that for FLIGHT, I personally thought FLIGHT was going to be a refined FSX ready to run on today's CPU's.........an FSX that could be run well on a $1k computer. To some degree it probably is, but without an SDK, we're left to entrust that MS has the drive to do what PMDG, Wilco, Carenado, Dreamfleet, Flytampa, FSDreamteam, Imaginesim, Orbx, ProjectMagenta, on and on and on and on have done and beyond. I seriously doubt that. The other problem lies in the idea that was simply forgotten by MS...........that the success of the software itself is and has always been due to the explosion of devleopment for it, both freeware and payware. At this point, I think the success of any flight simulation program lays in the community's willingness to embrace it as a devleopment platform. If X-plane or any other capable platform was somehow decided upon as a development platform, MSFS, MSFlight would end up like Propilot/FU. In the past. X-Plane has not been in the development spotlight like MSFS, and that is why MSFS is and has been what it is in terms of the community that surrounds it.........faith in the platform. Considering the SDK betrayel, as mean spirited as it may sound, I would honestly like to see a new sim franchise/system arise.

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Many have got rich off of the FS sim without having to paying any royalties for the product they have been exploiting!
You don't understand the history of flight simulator to make that statement. That, or you don't understand the importance of a product, whether it be software or a car, having devleopment or aftermarket support............free or pay. I'll explain it in short..........the more interest a software item gathers from add-on devleopers, the more likely it is people will purchase it, based on available additional options,resources and selection. That atrribute makes it a more valuable item. Wouldn't you ask youself why people are now going around talking about backing up or buying additional copies of FSX? They see and know the value of the product! Silly of course as it sounds, because we can back up with ISO. In truth, MS should be thanking any developer who contributed to the success of MSFS. That is the plain truth pal.

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It's only good if you don't want to stifle creativity in software development. Startups can barely afford to keep the lights on in many cases...if they are looking at a closed computer model where MS skims profits through a forced participation in the Windows store, where MS wants to own your IP and therefore your product and brand.... well then, if you understand markets and barriers to entry, many will think the cost of entry is too high. We do not want monopolies here... where the main consumer platform being Windows, you are forced to essentially merge with Microsoft in order to develop for the major consumer operating system.
Yep. This is exactly my biggest gripe with MS Flight!I said elsewhere that most of the big devs that exist today started off by making freeware. What Microsoft are doing is removing talented young devs from the picture competely. The current generation of PC users are so brilliantly technically minded largely because of the way things have been for the last few decades. I can write a Windows app and make it available to anyone. Surely this is the way it should be, with Windows or Flight Sim. If I had grown up on a Mac, I wouldn't know even 10% of what I know about computers today. Probably less than 5%.Few things anger me more than lining coffers at the expense of progress. This is exactly what Microsoft are doing. If they want to see where it will take them eventually, have a look at the South African government over here which adopted much the same ideas in their version of "running a country" for the last decade. Everything is falling apart and there are no talented young engineers to fix it, like there have been for a hundred years.If they don't ever release the SDK, and if they continue with this "our shop or nothing" attitude, the art of flightsim development will slowly die over the next decade unless the whole lot moves over to X-Plane. I'm not a fan of X-Plane, although I am a fan of the platform. It's not nearly ready to use as a daily sim in my mind, but if all these talented FSX devs jump over to X-Plane, that would be an entirely different story, and with X-Plane, we'd actually get the fixes/requests made by the community that uses it.Microsoft, however, will have missed the boat completely.This community thrives on things like daily AVSIM uploads from talented users making their creations available to all. The cream of the crop often go on to develop stunning payware. It is a society, an economy, in itself, and it should be treated and protected as such.

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Did I miss the announcement that Flight will contain a virus that will permanently destroy all copies of FSX? FSX and all the add-ons available for it currently will work just fine. Now it may be that in the fullness of time enough people will migrate away from FSX (though probably not to Flight) that it becomes no longer economically attractive to develop new add-ons for FSX, but everything there is will remain in working condition. If that ruins FSX for you, then perhaps you should ask yourself why you can only be content with a program if it gives you a shiny new add-on to play with every month.Mozart will never write another note of music, but that doesn't ruin what he did compose.But if it gives you any piece of mind, both Orbx and PMDG have announced they will be developing for FSX for the forseeable future.
My point was the the hurting of the vendor's sales/development. A secondary is that vendor issue "trickling down" to the user.Who really knows what will happen. But if the solid support of addon vendors is breached, due to Flight, then FSX will be hurt in the longer term.

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Many have got rich off of the FS sim without having to paying any royalties for the product they have been exploiting!
Hippos let birds run around on their hide picking off nasty ticks and other things. Quid-pro-quo in nature or business.

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MS should be thanking any developer who contributed to the success of MSFS. That is the plain truth pal.
That view is an urban myth. How many only bought FS because of the add-ons compared with those who bought knowing nothing about the existence of add-ons? I suggest it's a tiny fraction of total FS sales.ORBX, which knows far more about add-on sales than the rest of us, said:
The actual (read: active, purchasing third party add ons) real FS enthusiast community is tiny. We estimate less than 40,000 active FS enthusiasts worldwide, across both the tube liner and VFR disciplines. We know this purely from tracking our sales data and also being aware of other developer's sales data which they share with us.
Enthusiasts fail to recognise that sales to them are insignificant in overall terms and should be grateful that Microsoft went as far as it did with FSX.http://forum.avsim.n...ncelledon-hold/

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Guys, here is the bottom line, it's like drugs, what happen when a big drug lord is capture....a smaller fish wanting to be big is taking his place because there is a demand for the product and money to be made, if there is money to be made somebody will sell the product no matter what.Same with addons, the big addon lord are making them for FSX because there is money to be made, if MS is to release some addons for Flight to test the water and a demand is created for them.....trust me, a smaller fish wanting to be big will make them (in house or else).

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My thoughts exactly. What is it that people do not see the huge money sitting there waiting to be made? Flight's initial download figures will be stunning. It will draw more into flying. For example. I was trying to get a friend into flying. He downloaded FSX and commented how ugly, slow and boring it was. After a hour playing with sliders he deleated it. So here is a guy willing to take the trouble to try the sim, but due to it's 2006 coding and visuals, it gets deleated. I would guess he would have enjoyed Flight a lot more. Knowing nothing like hard core as we do, his impressions would be positive. How many deep in line at CES were their waiting to try Flight? A lot. So, these guys trying it, who want to fly, and the thing looks good and works, gives them something to do IE collect a few tokens will gravitate towards the deeper end of the pool. They start buying the stuff making it what they want to be. I'll repete myself, The best selling add on's for FSX will be the best selling add on's for Flight. The opportunity for money is sitting there. If we are in an economic slump, then some one will want to avail themselves of a financial opportunity. How many qualified graphic artist are there world wide that can do such work? This stuff can be done in a home office and no physical central meeting place required to do this type of work. I say the glass is half full with Flight. Time will tell nonetheless who is right and who is wrong. Many want to be the big drug lord is my vote.

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