Flight will be good

[xplanery 250]

+1I am looking forward to that too! I don't know what I am going to like more: MS Flight or the looks on the faces (pity we will never really see them) of those who are talking MS Flight down now! :( Ah, heck, of course I am going to like MS Flight more...

Or another possibility is that those who are sceptical towards Flight were right again and optimists failed again... Who knows. Edited January 21, 2012 by pvjinflight

[Guest]

Or another possibility is that those who are sceptical towards Flight were right again and optimists failed again... Who knows.

I think I know now... Hm, let's rephrase that: I know, period.

[Guest]

Since when is saying 1 + 1 = 2 smug and arrogant? :( Maybe there is more to MS Flight then the cartoon experience you had? As A380 said: we will see...

Edited January 21, 2012 by J van E

[garsands 0]

I was told this recently by someone inside.

Someone in jail told you this?

[Attila 2]

Since when is saying 1 + 1 = 2 smug and arrogant? :( Maybe there is more to MS Flight then the cartoon experience you had? As A380 said: we will see...

It is so when one says it with a knowing smirk and with a convenient excuse not to have to back it up.

[Guest]

It is so when one says it with a knowing smirk and with a convenient excuse not to have to back it up.

All glory to the NDA... :( It's not about not having to back it up: I know I should really back it up and I would LOVE to back it up, but I can't.

[phillipw 0]

Flight, FSX and X-Plane 10 are all technically PC games.Define "serious simulation."

I had to register so I could correct your "error". :( The difference between X-plane (9 and I'll assume 10) from the other two is that x-plane IS a real flight sim. Neither FSX nor MS Flight has "the blessing" from the FAA... whereas you can buy an FAA approved version of X-Plane.Thus...X-Plane = PC based flight simulatorFSX= PC gameFlight= PC game.

Define "serious simulation."

Something that gives me a similar result as flying a real aircraft...without the fear of death?? :) I can get close enough (for me ) with FSX. I can "IFR myself all I want" in FSX and it's a fairly decent represention of real IFR, IMO. With X-Plane, I can even log some of the time (I have the "approved" version).I'm really wanting to see how Flight turns out. My flight sim days go back to the old Sublogic stuff on the C-64 and the Amiga. I wish MS would have let me give "Flight" a whirl. I'm a "real pilot" with more than a few hours (PPL since 71) under my "wings." They blew me off. :(

[Attila 2]

You're going to have to show me exactly where I supposedly "threw a fit."

It appears that the Admins have saved your bacon by removing that post. I strongly disagree with removing it, because now the story has been edited and the evidence has been removed.Still, you must remember it. It is where you called me hater and swore to be done with me and never to talk to me again. You also posted a link to some image to show how mature and right your posts are compared to mine.Anyhow, it is gone and you posted another image in another post, for which you wrote a lengthy explanation whose relevance I failed to see. Something about Game of Thrones - and yes I know what it's about, just don't see the relevance.

I have stated that PERHAPS I know more than some of the members here who are basing most of their negative comments on nothing more than speculation.

So, when you are admonishing people for posting negative posts, are you perhaps speculating or do you know? If you know, how do you know that you are right? You keep posting how nobody knows what the final product will be, but "you know" that it will not be what some of us are posting. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but so am I, until you can show some proof that you are right and I am wrong.When I listed the sources on which I rely for what I post, you simply discount them. Even the MS press release.There is just no way to have a discussion with you.

[JasonD210 0]

Just to be clear, by "future," I was referring to the near future of GA PC Flightsims (the next few years) ... NOT my own future.

Of course, if you have reliable information that Flight will allow freeware, and be open to 3rd party developers to develop and market their own products without permission from Microsoft, and that Flight is generally better than what we have seen from evidence leaked by Beta testers, then I can't argue against what you are saying.Otherwise I don't agree with your prediction because I honestly don't know how the future will unfold. I just know that taking full control of the playing ground, as Microsoft intend to by deciding who and who can't develop for Flight, by taking developer's money, by banning freeware and by preventing end-users from adding anything to it, goes against the open ended architecture culture that has made the MSFS series so popular and established it as platform. It will stifle creativity and interest from genuinely creative developers, and drive away people who wish to customise it themselves, while instead meeting the needs of instant gratification generation - click to buy.I am no fan of X-plane, as it has always been miles behind FSX, but at least its developers don't impose such restrictions and postively encourage development. What choice do I have in the future, when FSX gets too old, and Flight is locked down? X-plane or Prepar3d if I want to create my own scenery.

[dmaher 0]

I had to register so I could correct your "error". :( The difference between X-plane (9 and I'll assume 10) from the other two is that x-plane IS a real flight sim. Neither FSX nor MS Flight has "the blessing" from the FAA... whereas you can buy an FAA approved version of X-Plane.

Hi Phillipw, you probably already know this but...The FAA only certifies a complete software and hardware solution for logging hours....a cockpit of some kind.With either Xplane or MSFS (aka ESP) we'd need to purchase/rent a third party certified taining device......or build and certify our own I suppose ;)As well, we are talking about a few hours of basic IFR procedures...not stick and rudder learning.It has little to do with the advanced aerodynamic simulation.My local FBO has a simulator that uses vacuum tubes and 1970's vector graphics.It’s hardly authentic, but all the old clockwork IFR gauges still operate :(

[Arwen 289]

It appears that the Admins have saved your bacon by removing that post. I strongly disagree with removing it, because now the story has been edited and the evidence has been removed.Still, you must remember it. It is where you called me hater and swore to be done with me and never to talk to me again. You also posted a link to some image to show how mature and right your posts are compared to mine.

I didn't ask for that post to be removed. I don't recall my exact words, but I might have asked you why you hate Flight so much, or I might has said that I was sick of Flight haters.When someone has put as much effort into trying their best to make Flight look as bad as possible, I don't see anything wrong with stating the obvious; that they hate Flight.I don't swear, so don't accuse me of doing so, unless you can prove it. I said that I would be ignoring you ... which I did for a number of days. When you quoted me, I posted an image with the words: "Please don't interrupt me while I'm ignoring you.: (or close to that). I was trying to add a little humor, and I cannot believe that you were somehow insulted by that.

Anyhow, it is gone and you posted another image in another post, for which you wrote a lengthy explanation whose relevance I failed to see. Something about Game of Thrones - and yes I know what it's about, just don't see the relevance.

I posted that image, because I felt that saying was appropriate within its context (which should have been clear because it included the name "Jon Snow."). My lengthy explanation was my attempt to explain to you that I wasn't insulting your intelligence (which apparently you still don't understand).

So, when you are admonishing people for posting negative posts, are you perhaps speculating or do you know? If you know, how do you know that you are right? You keep posting how nobody knows what the final product will be, but "you know" that it will not be what some of us are posting. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but so am I, until you can show some proof that you are right and I am wrong.

There's a difference between supporting a product with speculation, and tearing down a product with speculation. The first is about hope and enthusiasm. The latter is to do harm, or to try to justify your own choices, or to just have fun at other members' expense.There are some specific things about Flight that I happen to know, so when I see a negative post in which I know for certain is not true, I'm going to let everyone here know that what was stated as fact, is not the truth. If people here don't want to believe me, then that is fine. But there are some members here who do put some credence on what I post.

When I listed the sources on which I rely for what I post, you simply discount them. Even the MS press release.There is just no way to have a discussion with you.

Show me where I "simply discounted them" ... I likely stated that you took them out of context, which is not the same thing.I'm a very easy person to discuss any topic with, because I don't take it personal (until someone makes a personal attack on me). You won't have fun arguing with me, as I do have a temper.

[Arwen 289]

Of course, if you have reliable information that Flight will allow freeware, and be open to 3rd party developers to develop and market their own products without permission from Microsoft, and that Flight is generally better than what we have seen from evidence leaked by Beta testers, then I can't argue against what you are saying.Otherwise I don't agree with your prediction because I honestly don't know how the future will unfold. I just know that taking full control of the playing ground, as Microsoft intend to by deciding who and who can't develop for Flight, by taking developer's money, by banning freeware and by preventing end-users from adding anything to it, goes against the open ended architecture culture that has made the MSFS series so popular and established it as platform. It will stifle creativity and interest from genuinely creative developers, and drive away people who wish to customise it themselves, while instead meeting the needs of instant gratification generation - click to buy.I am no fan of X-plane, as it has always been miles behind FSX, but at least its developers don't impose such restrictions and postively encourage development. What choice do I have in the future, when FSX gets too old, and Flight is locked down? X-plane or Prepar3d if I want to create my own scenery.

It really doesn't matter to me if you agree with my prediction about Flight. its SDK, and third party developers. That is just my own personal opinion on that subject. And I get that a lot of people here are going to disagree with me.I'm never said that the way MS is handling this (the SDK and 3PDs) is the right way. I do think that I understand their reasoning (beyond just the profit), and some of it makes sense to me. I'm also a big fan of freeware, since I have spent thousands of hours creating few game mods (huge game-play changing overhauls), and I was able to make these mods because I had access to the developer's SDK.I have pretty vocal on a MS website about many of their decisions about Flight, and especially about the way they have treated the fightsim community as a whole. So I'm not a blind fan, and I have not supported everything that Microsoft does or has done.

[Arwen 289]

Thruster, below are two of the posts I made on Jan 5th, about how disappointed I was after the MS Press Release on Flight:

I'm also a female who "loves flying," but I've been a girl gamer a LOT longer than you. I'm also very involved in single player Role Playing Games (have a gaming website, make huge overhaul mods, and run a small international gaming forum).I've personally witnessed the decay of computer RPGs, as the role-playing part as been reduced to the point that that most RPGs are now mostly just action first (or third) person shooters (or slashers). The reason for their decline is that the largest developers decided to cater to casual gamers (who would not even like playing a real RPG). There are hardly any PC RPGs left, and most of these are Xbox games that were ported to the PC. If it wasn't for the modding community, I would have given up on RPGs several years ago.Now I'm witnessing the decline of flight simulators, as developers like Microsoft are catering to casual gamers and ignoring the long time supporters of their flightsims. Money is tight for me . . . I don't have much money left after the bills have been paid each month, but I would have managed to come up with $50 (or even $ ) for Flight . . .if it was actually FSXI.I'm not angry, but this is all pretty depressing for me. I supported MS until today, while they finally admitted that they have discarded the "hard-core" flightsim community ("Hard-core" now seems to mean any gamer who actually enjoys games/sims that have any depth, or take longer than 30 minutes to master).I had real hopes for Flight, but Microsoft blew it, big time. You don't turn your back on your former/current customers, just to make a buck, That is wrong. MS should have been honest with us from the start, instead of stringing us along about how "realistic" Flight was going to be. In fact, in my opinion, they are still not being honest with us.

Because, in my opinion, flightsims have been in a slow decline for more than a decade. Look, I bought X-Plane 9, so I've already "supported" X-Plane. I was hoping that X-Plane 10 would live up to its pre-release hype, but it hasn't. I'm not paying $79 for X-Plane 10 until it has decent AI, a working flight planner, and more than just a "plausible game world," with broken roads, bridges to nowhere, flat trees that look like cardboard cutouts, and square lakes and shorelines. The lights and clouds are a big improvement, but the rest still needs a LOT of work. I own FSX, and I bought a bunch of 3rd party addons, so why should I purchase a sim that is a step backwards from what I'm currently using.I'm not whining . . . I'm expressing my disappointment. What I initially hoped would be a real sim that could perhaps bring some new life into this genre, is going to be nothing more than another button mashing arcade game. All I've done in this thread is given my opinion (which, by the way, is just as valid as yours).

Yet now I'm one of Flight's biggest defenders here. And it is not because I'm a flaky, moody female (although I can't deny both of those things are part of my makeup). Something happened soon after I made those post that restored my hope in Flight. And that hope has continued to grow since then. Those posts were made because I was reading too much into that press release and my disappointment was feeding off all the negativity here and all the speculation.I'm am an optimist by nature. I cannot help it ... it is a big part of who I am. But I'm also a realist. I have my reasons for supporting Flight right now. I am not at liberty to give you the details, so you and others here will have to have a little faith that perhaps my reasons might actually be valid. I'm not trying to convince anyone to uninstall FSX and/or X-Plane. I am not out to convert anyone over to Flight.But I do think that everyone who enjoys flightsims should give Flight the same chance they would give any other new flightsim. All the negative attitude toward Microsoft. and toward Flight is poisoning this forum. The Flight Team is a very small part of MS. I honestly believe that most of the members of the Flight Team are not driven by the "smell of money" nor the desire to turn ouf a dumbed-down flightsim, No matter what you and other think of Microsoft, I believe that we should give the Flight Team a chance to show us what they can do.I don't know if Flight will succeed as a realistic flightsim, but something that I cannot currently talk about has impressed me enough for to make a believer. Edited January 22, 2012 by Arwen

[Attila 2]

Show me where I "simply discounted them" ... I likely stated that you took them out of context, which is not the same thing.I'm a very easy person to discuss any topic with, because I don't take it personal (until someone makes a personal attack on me). You won't have fun arguing with me, as I do have a temper.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/360016-splitting-the-topic-perspective-history/page__st__50__p__2232473#entry2232473

All the above in your list is dependent upon personal interpretation of the data. And NO ONE'S even seen the finished product yet.I've also viewed all the above. So why are my feelings about Flight so different than yours?Why have you made it your personal mission to attack Flight here? What do you hope to gain by Flight's failure?

And about that temper...it is unfortunate that we don't have the actual post.I know you'll want the last word. Have at it. I am done with this issue.

[Arwen 289]

Attilla, you accused me of "simply discounting" the sources of which you rely. My reply was not "simply discounting" anything. I gave you my honest reasons, yet my reasons were apparently not good enough for you.Here's my original reply concerning your sources: "All the above in your list is dependent upon personal interpretation of the data. And NO ONE'S even seen the finished product yet.I've also viewed all the above. So why are my feelings about Flight so different than yours?Why have you made it your personal mission to attack Flight here? What do you hope to gain by Flight's failure?And you never did answer my last question. You just keep saying that you're not attacking Flight, when it is obvious that is exactly what you are doing. You don't have to like Flight, but spending time here every day to post negative things about serves no purpose, it is a blatant attack on it. A person cannot even start a positive thread about Flight in the Flight forum, without you jumping in and posting your negativity.Yeah, make a final hit and run post. When you accuse someone wrongfully, you need to expect them to respond to your accusations. If defending myself is viewed as my need to have the last word, then so be it.