Angle of Attack Training

[ohsirus 241]

Would be nice to have a complimentary 747 or 767 or AviatorPro subscription in the meantime.

[IFR7700 228]

Would be nice to have a complimentary 747 or 767 or AviatorPro subscription in the meantime.

I think that is a great compromise.

[DeCampos 40]

Still believe you're misleading people by not informing on your web site what has been completed unless they pay for the course.

[gman1986 14]

I bought the captains package pretty much after the NGX was released and I was pleased with the way things were going in the first couple of months. I did't expect much, but what I did expect was consistency. Now it's unfortunate that they have had issues with product and these things obviously happen within businesses. I'm not asking for a refund as I know what sort of products they're capable of. I mean the md11 package was one of the most enjoyable learning experiences I've had with FS. I do however think that it has run on too long without updates to the package and some form of compensation could be given. Thats just my opinion.Hope you guys can sort it out Chris.

[Chris from Angle of Attack 7]

Hey, Chris!Thanks for coming over and giving a heads-up on what's going on. I really appreciate it. I've been a customer of the NGX Training from day 1 and, although I have to admit I was not happy with the dealys, I still have confidence that you are able to work out the issues and get back on track somehow, based on what I've seen on the MD-11 Training, continuing to deliver the great videos you do.After this post of yours I could actually have a clue of how big the problems were, and it's nice to have an idea of what you're facing and how you're working them out, maybe even compromising your real life commitments.I'd like you to know that I fully support your work and, as I said before, I have confidence on what you're doing.Cheers!

Thanks! I appreciate that. Many people say we're just making up excuses and 'it shouldn't be this hard'. And then they'll go on about Youtube videos and the likes. The truth is, we DO have a lot of challenges and nothing on Youtube offers a full professionally edited, scripted and complete course. It's really silly to compare. So anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence.

I bought the captains package pretty much after the NGX was released and I was pleased with the way things were going in the first couple of months. I did't expect much, but what I did expect was consistency. Now it's unfortunate that they have had issues with product and these things obviously happen within businesses.I'm not asking for a refund as I know what sort of products they're capable of. I mean the md11 package was one of the most enjoyable learning experiences I've had with FS. I do however think that it has run on too long without updates to the package and some form of compensation could be given. Thats just my opinion.Hope you guys can sort it out Chris.

I agree. As I said, it's unacceptable to us, and we're working hard to turn things around. The MD-11 shows just how great our stuff can be if we're doing things correctly. Issue now is we have a heck of a lot more to do!Speaking of which, the MD-11 Training was primarily filmed inside the cockpit and that made for a pretty easy production process. Now that we have to create every asset from scratch for this systems training (GroundWork), it's VERY work intensive. Nonetheless, we're getting it figured out. We'll be releasing a section today, in fact.

Still believe you're misleading people by not informing on your web site what has been completed unless they pay for the course.

Have you seen what happens in the shopping cart? There is a warning there in the header. Additionally, we will add something to the website as well based on the suggestions here. That was a good idea, and I agree. I need to have my designer get in there and do it, though, so it doesn't look like crap. Should be up within a week or so, as I have some other design things coming down the line to spruce up other products. But yes, we'll be taking care of that. And it's already shown in the shopping cart.

I think that is a great compromise.

That's not a bad idea. I've thought of doing AviatorPro. I think that'd be a good idea for a month or two while things spool up. Hmmmm... I'll have to have a think about this one.

I'll surely buy the NGX training again once its completeChris Palmer, you said..."The voice over guy is rock solid, and will give us professional (we don't even consider ourselves professional) level voice overs in a 24 hour turn around, edited and ready for the video."What I want to know is why have you stopped doing the voice overs? I bought your MD-11 training and think your MD-11 voice overs were very professional and very easy / exciting to listen to..

Thanks! I really appreciate that. I had a blast doing the MD-11 voice overs, and I think out of all the stuff I've done, they were my best. Aviator90 wasn't too bad, either. I've really tried to just let my voice be authentic rather than sound like other voice over people. I think it's helped with the authenticity quite a bit. The reason why I don't do voice overs anymore is quite simple: someone needs to run the business. AOA is in a position now to go through a growth period; something every business needs to do. There are different levels of a business; technical, management, and leadership. I've always worked (767,747, MD-11, Aviator90, AviatorPro) in the technical end of things, putting things together and doing all the video stuff. That left little time or energy for management, let alone leadership. We have a good set of products, but without the business practices, growth, and leadership behind those products, it's hopeless. As these guys have worked on the 737, I've spearheaded efforts to revamp the website, membership area, marketing, and design of what we're doing. Most of my time recently has been spent simply figuring out this 737 product, making sure we stay on track. We could have gone on forever with our convoluted and chaotic production model we started out with on the NGX. When you're a technical worker on the product, it's hard to see the chaos on the outside. I've been the one pushing the team, and eventually making the much needed decisions like getting a new video editor, a project manager eventually (had to man up and be honest with myself, I'm just not that great at it, and not properly educated in best PM practices), and other moves that will turn this around. Without these management and leadership efforts, we'd never reach "V1". Sometimes I want to dive in there and do the work, but it's just not wise. In the future as things settle down, we're thinking about starting a new free series like Aviator90, we'll almost for sure be starting a Podcast (Nick and I), and some other things that will allow me to have a bit of creative fun with this stuff. For now I want to continue to build a foundation for AOA that we can stand on for years to come. Without these efforts (and the visible growing pains we're going through), we can't succeed into the future. Hope that makes sense.

[IFR7700 228]

That's not a bad idea. I've thought of doing AviatorPro. I think that'd be a good idea for a month or two while things spool up. Hmmmm... I'll have to have a think about this one.

AviatorPro would be great. The multi-engine training by itself is worth the price of admission. Jordan is doing a great job on the Duke. It wouldn't benefit me, as I already have EVERY AoA product. (even the LevelD training and I have no intention of buying the LevelD Addon). I say this so that you know I don't have an axe to grind. Maybe a discount on the Triple 7 training? :) hehehe

[Chris from Angle of Attack 7]

Thanks for your update Chris,I usually restrain from being instructive, but there is one thing I know too much about to keep quiet.It is about timeframe communication, expectations and disappointments.Case AOrdering an item at a webshop at 25th of january, expected delivery 5th of february. Delivered 8th of february. Three days of waiting, getting more and more upset. Even more, since the webshop said it should arrive "any time now".Result: Anger and disappointment. Discontent.Case BOrdering an item at a webshop at 25th of january, expected delivery 10th of february. Delivered 8th of february. Two days early!!Result: Happy about the early delivery, cheerful. A feel of good customer service.Please note that the ordering date and the delivery date is the exact same, yet the customer experience can be dramatically different.Point is; always add a good buffer when giving release dates. Add a week or two if necessary, so you are absolutely sure there will be no delay. Ignore the whiners being disappointed because of the long timeframe. They will cheer when the video is delivered "early".This is a really easy trick. I have used it a lot, and it works every time.Regards,Andy

This is one thing we've talked a lot about in the project planning (we being me and the project manager). Our schedule is setup and so we're constantly building a buffer in which to deal with, then, eventually, we can have ACTUAL release days, and know that everything is all ready to go. This business of releasing just hours after we complete isn't the way to go, and it's stressful on our guys. So yes, we've kept this in mind in the project planning, for sure.

A suggestion for your next projects would be to at least finish half of the training before letting know the customers. I make video tutorials myself just driven by the passion but even so it takes times and a lot of work. While making the NGX video tutorials I had to edit over 150Gb of data and it wasn't easy. It's not because it's free that it is unprofessional as some said in this topic.

You may want to PM me. If we find the workload too high for our new video editor, we'll be looking for someone else in addition. We use Adobe CS 5.5 for all our work, and have quite an impressive back end system for file sharing. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll check out your work.

AviatorPro would be great. The multi-engine training by itself is worth the price of admission. Jordan is doing a great job on the Duke. It wouldn't benefit me, as I already have EVERY AoA product. (even the LevelD training and I have no intention of buying the LevelD Addon). I say this so that you know I don't have an axe to grind. Maybe a discount on the Triple 7 training? :) hehehe

Sadly, it's yet to be determined if we'll even do a 777 Training. I want to, but we also need to keep our current commitments first. I have no idea what PMDGs production schedule is. But if it's really fast, we're hosed on that one. At least on a Day 1 release. The good thing is we'll have this system down once we get there ;)So you're really enjoying AviatorPro, eh? I always wonder! Seems most people love it. In fact, most people just shutup and go through the almost 100 hours of training without saying much.

Chris,I must say, that I strongly take issue with recent changes in your advertising and website. Both strongly apply that it is complete(for example, the product page says in big letters, 'complete downloadable training', and the bottom says 'ready for the full training now?') , and it's incomplete status is barely mentioned on the order page. The continual advertising on websites also seems misleading.

We're taking notice of this. There is actually warnings on the actual checkout page that say the status. What we mean by 'Complete' and 'Full' is that you're getting systems, flight, procedural and line training. You can't get all that in once place anywhere else. And although all the content isn't available yet, we'll be the only place that does have it once complete. It's a hard line to follow. Those who have bought into our training so far (literally and figuratively) know that they'll be getting it section by section. But to have a sales page that has warnings plastered all over the place when we're trying to sell people on the idea of getting it section by section doesn't make a ton of sense to me. We can admittedly to better with the warnings, and I'll make sure our graphics guys work on that.

To me, it seems more of a Level-D sim.Delivered greatly in past, being at one time the pinnacle of simulation in the meaning that the NGX now is (with their 767), with a promising new product they ought to have all the expertise needed to get it done (757), instead they just keep on insisting it is being worked on and it will be good, but only release something, that while being nice in itself, is by no means what everyone is expecting (767 Winglet expansion)

Except our training is 6 months in the making, not 6 years. And you're actually seeing results.

or give a third of a refund back for how long since most of them have had the use of some of the training packages that are out

That'd be a huge mess, and I can't see how we'd do a partial refund from our credit card processor. There are better options.

Chris,I'm one of the guys who asked for a refund but I'm not one of the guys who "threw their arms in the air" because of a video that wasn't released Wednesday. I didn't even know one was meant to be released since I've since long stopped checking for updated content for obvious reasons.I will not be long-winded today, I already posted my view on all this in detail here -> http://www.flyaoamed...efund-question/ and I'm still waiting for you to answer to my last post in that thread. I figured the silence most probably was equal to "No, I/we will not give you a refund" but reading your post here where you say you've been kind and forthcoming gives me new hope. Below is my last post in the AoA forum regarding all this.Thanks for your thorough answer Chris.I hear what you say and for your sake I hope you will be able to match it but honestly I think in the situation you are right now with quite a number of customers who are not happy and some of them actually feel cheated I don't think it's a very wise decision from a business perspective to refuse unhappy customers to get a refund with the excuse the purchase was made way back in time. That would be OK with a "normal" product where you get 100% of it right from the start but not in this case where you won't have a fair chance to know if you're happy with the purchase within that 30 day time limit.I'm a very serious flight simmer Chris and I've "been around" in the FS community for many years now and tried many different products throughout these years and I don't very often ask for refunds but in this case I do. I can't tell you how you should run your business but I've been in the sales business myself and in the IT business as a consultant for nearly 20 years and one of the first things I learned was that your nr 1 thing on the list in all situations is to keep the customer happy and if you for some reason are not able to the best thing you can do is to in a very polite and friendly way ask if there is anything you can do to make the customer happy again and if not let the customer get his money back and tell him you're sorry you were not able to make him happy this time but that you're hoping you will be able to next time. The last thing you want to do is starting to make excuses to a customer who clearly already "had it" and especially if you clearly can put yourself in his shoes.So…again…thanks Chris for your answer and looking at the good reputation your company always have had in the FS business it's very likely I'll do more business with you in the future but in this particular case I'm not a happy customer and I actually feel both cheated and fed up with waiting and listening to excuses so please reconsider your decision not letting me get a refund.Best regards,Richard

Shoot me a PM and we'll discuss this privately. If I allow rules like that to be broken for you, it means I have to do it for everyone else, and our timeframes mean nothing. As someone else said, 6 years down the road someone could come asking for a refund. What you're asking for isn't nearly that unreasonable. Just get with me and we'll chat about it.

Christhanks for the explanation.I am one of these customers that bought the complete captain's package and, although i appreciate your explanation, it doesn't mean much too me anymore.I did it based on the excellent MD-11 training but, as you mention yourself, you have not been able to live up to this expectation (yet).I will not ask for a refund because i have seen what could come out of your studio's and once you have got your act together again i am still sure it will be worth it.SO some free advice from just one of your customers: Put your effort into setting this right. That is not done with the 100th excuse reply on this or any other forum. (although i do understand you have to mention something now and then)Refund people if they ask and charge them the full pond when they want to join later. (whether your cash position can take this i can not oversee of course).But dedicate your energy on delivering as much as possible. Sure this is S..T. Sure we are dissattified customers (and we have a right to be) but all this will be forgiven and forgotten once you start pushing out the remainder of the training at (or even better above) MD-11 training level. (at least this is true for me but i guess this goes for a lot of people)I wish you all the best and good business acumen making this happen

That has been one thing I've told my team the entire time as we've faced these issues; "The only thing that will fix this is actually releasing videos". The rest is smoke and mirrors, hand holding, and overall just being honest about what's going on. There's only so much talk that can matter. Eventually, it has to show through as results. Thanks for the tips. I'm noting what's being said.

Chris,As you know, I am an avid supporter of AoA and have praised your work extensively.All of this controversy has been caused by a lack of communication my freind.You see, on Avsim, one person post's about a discontentment and immedietley, others chime in with their opinions. That is the nature of this beast. I often suggested to Nick that at least one 'Flight' video should be done, in order to satisfy people's needs. He understandably replied that, he had a schedule to work to and as you are the boss here, he was governed by your requirements.You often referred to, objectively in my opinion, to 'Airsimmer' as 'toast' on the 'FS Break' podcast's which I thought was rather unfair as to the fact that now that a new moderator over there is communicating with enquiries (Flex) and keeping us informed, which is what the previous guy failed at.Lack of communication is as bad as NO communication and the opinion here was that maybe AoA had become 'toast'.Now that you have made this post, people now know that your not, but it should have been made sooner.The previous 'mod' at Avsim told me that he didn't mind customers of Airsimmer complaining on that forum because "it was better for them to 'sound off' there than to bring it over to here, or for that matter any other forum.Avsim forums are the real hub of hardcore and casual simmers. Here is where they all come to investigate what is 'hot' in the sim world we all enjoy so it is here that you (In my opinion) should be promoting and communicating with your grateful customers. You can of course now, moderate it by acceptance for your customers only and leave the 'read' side of it open to everyone. Either way is the way to go.Let me also again, congratulate you for posting here and I hope that everyone appreciates your time taken out from your work to achieve this.

Thanks, Dave. Always great to have you around, and we appreciate the passion you've shown for Angle of Attack. Nick WAS going to work on FlightWork, actually. But we found he'd maybe get one flight done (maybe, because of hardware issues). It made more sense to have him focus on GroundWork and transition it over to the people replacing him. Otherwise, we'd have two rigid cutoffs for both parts of the product. That didn't make sense to us.

[WebMaximus 372]

Shoot me a PM and we'll discuss this privately. If I allow rules like that to be broken for you, it means I have to do it for everyone else, and our timeframes mean nothing. As someone else said, 6 years down the road someone could come asking for a refund. What you're asking for isn't nearly that unreasonable. Just get with me and we'll chat about it.

Thanks Chris, I'll do that.

[WebMaximus 372]

I have now sent you a PM Chris.

[Chris from Angle of Attack 7]

Hey all,We just released the TCAS section. Here is a 'half' preview that I have put up on Youtube (it's also available on there in 1080P if you have internet that can handle it).http://www.youtube.com/embed/6wB0dl3v5gI

Edited February 29, 2012 by AOA001

[NoahBryant 26]

Chris - Good video. I really look forward to watching these. I consider myself in the group of people that will probably buy it when it's finished. The quality of work is top notch. Have you put any consideration into selling them individually?Even knowing that I would spend far more money on them individually than purchasing the whole package at once, I would still start buying them today and watching them.I think you have yourself a fairly large group of people who are reluctant to purchase anything until it is done. The worry though is depending on when these sections are available completely, a lot of people may have lost interest in the NG by then. Just a friendly suggestion/request - if you offered that I'd start buying them immediately.

[WebMaximus 372]

Chris,I sent you a PM a couple of days ago like you asked me to and as mentioned in my post above but I never heard back from you?

[pete_auau 1,159]

Chris,I sent you a PM a couple of days ago like you asked me to and as mentioned in my post above but I never heard back from you?

how many times you need to post this you already posted this already no need to double post

[WebMaximus 372]

how many times you need to post this you already posted this already no need to double post

Sigh...

[oscar19681 0]

Uhhh, NO!Exactly!He's a real world 737 pilot. The only problem is that he has a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY strong German accent, sometimes it makes it hard to understand him.Here is his Funchal tutorial:

Now back to the topic....I was going to buy the NGX training, but like Darrol said, it's more like a pre-order and I don't like that kind of stuff. However, I'll be more than glad to pre-order the PMDG 777... :(

Where can i get the groundcrew , is it freeware?