High Altitude Jet Routes 737NGX FMC

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Guys,

 

A lot of this topic is being made a lot more difficult than it really needs to be.

The Airway goes on the left.

The fix/navaid goes on the right.

 

In the case a route begins with an airway and not a fix/navaid, you must specify a beginning fix/navaid.

 

This is just a disconnect between how humans and computers process information. Routes are filed like that for the system (and controllers). A controller who sees a route as "V378 MXE ..." knows that it's vectors to join V378 (at his/her vectoring discretion). A pilot who sees that knows he/she will be vectored to the north to intercept V378 (at the controller's discretion). To the computer in the plane, just specifying V378 doesn't tell it where on V378 it will intercept. Computers don't do ambiguity very well, so you enter BAL, then on the next line V378 MXE, so it looks like:

 

DIRECT ------- BAL

V378 ----------- MXE

 

If you have a SID in the route, your route doesn't begin with an airway, it begins with a SID that terminates at a specified point. That point is a fix/navaid, so after specifying a SID, you can jump right into entering airways because the SID terminates somewhere on that airway.

 

As mentioned, when you see the speed/altitude specified, ignore it for the purposes of setting your route in the CDU. Those are there as requests through ATC, namely flow control (TMU) who would find those estimated speeds useful in planning how quickly you might arrive in a particular terminal area.

 

As cool as route programming software is, I suggest you actually learn manual entry just so you know how to go outside of the norm. Why? What happens when ATC rejects your flight plan for changes in weather, or traffic load? What will you do then?

 

United 962: "Oh sorry, ATC, we can't accept that routing because we're not sure how to set it in the FMC!"

ATC: "United 962, taxi to the holding pen via Zulu. Expect your clearance [in 1 hour and 30 min]."

 

 

 

 

Always, always remember that the computer is there to assist you in your job, not to do your job for you. The difference between a good pilot here and a pilot slave to the electronics, is that a good pilot here knows how to get the FMC to help him out. This is done by doing it yourself, not by letting programs generate COROUTEs for you. Once you know how to do it on your own, there's nothing wrong with COROUTEs, but until that time, just letting it work its magic in the background isn't teaching you anything.

 

Routes are really simple:

Airway Left - Fix/Navaid Right.

 

Once you start doing it and trying it yourself, you'll be amazed looking back at how difficult you made it out to be in your mind.

[Vargveum 53]

Well, like I said earlier DCT just means direct. Which, by the way, is confusing and completely unnecessary information in a flight plan. If you are not going via an airway the only means of going from one point to another is direct. So leave it out.

 

Anyway, it would be BN H62 MSO W180 SY H65 CB.

[g_precentralis 191]

You don't put those on the route. That's just for ATC filing purposes.

 

DCT BN H62 MSO W180 SY H65 CB

 

Yes you do. You should fly what you filed in flightplan unless ATC cleared you to do different.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Yes you do. You should fly what you filed in flightplan unless ATC cleared you to do different.

 

You don't, actually. At least here in the States, it's assumed.

 

BLUES RAMAY EYTEE J141 ROD WATSN is what you file from IAD to ORD. Note the lack of DCT.

 

The CAPITAL8 gets thrown on as a departure SID (since it's vectored, you don't file it, it's assumed and assigned), and all of the transitions between the fixes are assumed direct. On a full route clearance, you'd hear:

"United 962, cleared to the O'Hare airport. Capital 8 Departure, vectors to BLUES, direct RAMAY, direct EYTEE, J141 to ROD, direct WATSN, direct. Squawk 5642." (yes, I left out the A and F of CRAFT, but if you know about SID charts and look at the CAP8, you'll know why).

[g_precentralis 191]

Thats seems correct (I do not live nor fly in US), but I do not see how its different from what I said, In your example ATC assign you a way how to fly route.

[Spin737 102]

Yes you do. You should fly what you filed in flightplan unless ATC cleared you to do different.

 

There's two routes: what your dispatcher files with ATC and there's what you put in the FMC. The extra info on the ATC flight plan is an airspeed and a FL, that doesn't go on the route in the FMC.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Thats seems correct (I do not live nor fly in US), but I do not see how its different from what I said, In your example ATC assign you a way how to fly route.

 

Reading further, I see where you were going. The filed altitude and speeds are for ATC estimations only. Again, as I mentioned earlier, you file them in an expectation of how you will operate. ATC would have to clear you up to the higher altitude anyway, so you'd still have to actively request it and get it approved, so in the end you're still "flying what you file."

 

Even though you may file LAV H62 MSO M073F330 W180 SY M073F320 H65 CB, you'll be cleared initially to an altitude, which you must maintain until you request otherwise and get it approved. Again, it's not so much there so that they know you're going to fly that. It's there for their planning purposes of time enroute.

[g_precentralis 191]

There's two routes: what your dispatcher files with ATC and there's what you put in the FMC. The extra info on the ATC flight plan is an airspeed and a FL, that doesn't go on the route in the FMC.

 

Ok, and he send a flight plan with XYZ N454F370 AW123 ABC N460F360, and gives you XYZ AW123 ABC. You take off, fly at 380 and reach XYZ at FL380, although you filed 370 for that waypoint?

 

 

Reading further, I see where you were going. The filed altitude and speeds are for ATC estimations only. Again, as I mentioned earlier, you file them in an expectation of how you will operate. ATC would have to clear you up to the higher altitude anyway, so you'd still have to actively request it and get it approved, so in the end you're still "flying what you file."

 

Even though you may file LAV H62 MSO M073F330 W180 SY M073F320 H65 CB, you'll be cleared initially to an altitude, which you must maintain until you request otherwise and get it approved. Again, it's not so much there so that they know you're going to fly that. It's there for their planning purposes of time enroute.

 

Yea, ATC clear you for different altitude and you comply with that.

Just one question as you seems experienced enough (I do not have ability to fly at that altitudes): WHat would happen if you file such flight plan, and ATC approve it, and say you to just follow what you filed due some, irrelevant for this discussion,reason?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Again: making this more difficult than it needs to be. The information is passed along for Traffic Management Planning purposes. It's not set into the FMC, because you'd need to request it anyway (altitude-wise).

[g_precentralis 191]

Again: making this more difficult than it needs to be. The information is passed along for Traffic Management Planning purposes. It's not set into the FMC, because you'd need to request it anyway (altitude-wise).

No Im not, its perfectly logical to think what can happen. Thanks for answer.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

No Im not, its perfectly logical to think what can happen. Thanks for answer.

 

No, it really isn't perfectly logical. Even if I file 5 different altitudes as part of my filed flight plan, I'm not going to put that into my FMC. They will clear me to the first, and I'll have to get cleared to the others, so there's no sense in setting it in the FMC on the grounds you "fly what you file." That principle is there to make sure you're flying what ATC expects. Even if you file 5 different altitudes, ATC expects that you'll remain at the current altitude until you request and are permitted otherwise, so that argument is moot.

 

As far as the FMC goes, you tell it that information in the STEP info, so it's expecting that already. You don't throw it in the actual route.

[ctdesing 5]

here are a lot of people that haven't read the NGX included Real 737NG Manuals. The chapter No. 11 of the Volume 2 of the 737NG FCOM named Flight Management Navigation explain all you need to know about the FMS. Airways need an entry point (that must be part of the airway). the next airway must intercept the last airway(the end point of the first must be part of the next airway) unless you define another entry point and you flight direct to it. North Atlantic Tracks have entry points and exit points, you cant fill the coordinates of the NAT without and exit point and expect that the fms will connect it with and airway. AIRWAYS NEED AN ENTRY POINT AND AN EXIT POINT. The entry point and the exit point must be part of the airway. The cruise altitude that you fill on the Perf Init page is the first Cruise Altitude.

 

Example:

 

Via_________To

Direct_____Entry Point

Airway_____Exit Point(is the same entry point for the next airway)

Airway_____Exit point

__________NAT Coordinates

Direct______Entry Point

Airway______Exit Point

[hopskip 253]

You don't, actually. At least here in the States, it's assumed.

 

While the FAA/USA (and canada?) don't use the "DCT" for Direct, Australia does, and that flightplan example is Brisbane Australia to Canberra, the Capital of Australia.

 

However if you see DCT in a flightplan, you never enter this into your FMC. You do however file it (on a Vatsim flightplan for example).

 

same with the /N476F380. You file this in your (vatsim) flightplan, but don't put it in your FMC. It is just an indication that you will be climbing/decending/speeding up/slowing down to this speed/altitude. With the filed (Vatsim) flightplan you always need both Speed and Altitude indication, for instance /F380 would not be valid (For ATC use on Vatsim)

 

Regardless you don't enter this information into your FMC, it's just something you intend to do (climb to a higher altitude at a certain waypoint). In the specific example it is due to changing airways from an Easterly heading to a Westerly heading. RVSM flight rules in Australia have aircraft flying East to be on an "Odd" flight level (ie FL330, FL350, FL370, FL390) and Westerly headings to be on an "Even" flight level (ie FL320 FL340 FL360 FL380). The annotation addemnum to the flightplan /N0454F370 means that at MSO the aircraft will change altitude to FL370, and then passing SY, they will decend to FL360, primarily to meet the RVSM requirement. Sometimes on long flights they will climb to get a more efficient altitude, this is annotated the same way (N0454F370 for instance).

 

So, the flightplan sent to ATC (Vatsim, real world, not FSX default ATC cos it can't read) would be:

 

DCT BN H62 MSO N0454F370 W180 SY N0450F360 H65 CB

 

however the flightplan entered into the FMS would resemble:

 

BN H62 MSO W180 SY H65 CB

 

When flying the flight, when you approach MSO, you would talk to ATC and request to adjust your altitude to FL370. ATC would then check to see if there are any conflicts and either instruct you to climb/decend to FL370 or issue an alternitave command if the altitude wasn't available at the time. Similarly you would ask to decend to FL360 approaching Sydney SY VOR. At some point while tracking the H65 airway ATC would give you arrival (STAR/Runway in use) details and issue a decent clearance for your arrival into Canberra.

 

Trent Hopkinson

[Yosm 19]

Hello, 

 

The problem becomes more difficult....

 

I Have the latast Cycle in my database. 

 

I have a route plotting chart. (from real KLM pilot. Issue September 2012). with all the airways.

 

When trying to plan. EHAM-FAJS  (I know the 737-800 does not have the range.)

 

Via this route: ARNEM TRP (both DCT) then UL12 --> DHR , etc. 

 

The airway is then not in the database. airway and waypoints a correctly entered in the FMC

So there is an entry point. an ending point and an existing airway. but its not found. 

I have this problem  with more routes. (UL607 -> INLAK, UQ295 -> CLN.)

 

Is there a solution? perhaps the aiways are not updated with a new cycle?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

I have a route plotting chart. (from real KLM pilot. Issue September 2012). with all the airways.

 

September 2012 is considered out of date (like this thread).  That's where your problem is.  You're planning with a chart that's out of date, using data that is current.  If you want to plan using real charts, I'd suggest ww.skyvector.com - those will be up to date.

 

The nav data you're entering should always be up to date if it's the latest cycle.