Why are all topics gone?

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL 663]

After contributing 25 pages to the library and posting its content for five years i treasure this library , want it to become the tool to foster the next generation of new simmers coming from all sources

[atco 161]

If as much effort went into listening as has gone into being deaf, things would improve much more quickly... Just saying...

 

If as much effort went into Consulting as has gone into being told whats what, things would improve much more quickly... Just saying...

 

Its a two way street.

Many people have input a great deal of useful information over the new library, what worked, what didn't work and what could be improved that has now been erased and what you earlier rather dramtically called "rabid screechings" and "uninformed rantings". Rather disrespectful to those of us that took the time to be careful and thoughtful with our input.

 

For our part being helpful requires the reciever to have open ears and open minds. Not much of that has been on display here recently - Once again its a two way street.

The attitude that seems to have developed here recently that if you offer anything critical even in the most constructive way that you then become some kind of leeching parasite who is as ungrateful as they come and should be glad to be given what you get I find most distasteful.

It is entirely possible to remain critical, yet civil and remain as deeply grateful to the whole organisation and individuals as we all no doubt are. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Is this the forum that folks are concerned about?

 

http://forum.avsim.net/forum/324-file-library-support-forum/

[benclark 0]

The only thread in a forum that should ever be deleted are those that are criminal, nefarious, spam, etc. Basically all the crap of the world, other threads including those no longer valid such as those concerning the new file library should be locked. From reading previous staff posts it has already been made clear that in some way, shape or form, the new library will be coming back so those previous posts will be just as relevant if the issues raised are not fixed.

 

Those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it, just because there is no* chance of the holocaust happening again does that mean we should erase it from our history books? An extreme example I know but a valid comparison.

 

I wish you luck in getting the new library going, I know the work involved but please don't allow yourself to forget the work that we developers put in to our files which actually give you a library in the first place! You have already alienated many authors Tom in the last couple of days who provide a large majority of your most popular files, it is those files which bring your audience who in turn pay for your website through the ads, donations and other revenue streams. No files>no library>no users>no fees>no AVSIM.

 

* - 99.9% unlikely to happen, sadly never say never

[eric_19 0]

Did you think this forum...or any forum, a democracy?

Some yes and can't comment but forums do have to listen to people in order to be the best from the best

[philomeena 0]

I would hope to see folks volunteer to be part of the solution

 

But if you only listen to things you want to hear.. and delete or ridicule things you don't want to hear then people will think 'whats the point?'

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL 663]

What’s the point is a good place to start, within this discussion the point is to come to terms with what we are left with after all the venting, frustration and recriminations are done with, as I stated in my opening post knowing when to move on is the point.

 

Where to point towards is next and again we depend on history to presage the future , Avsim is not a democracy, nor is it a country with borders or elections, Avsims creation and evolution were not organized by elections but by leadership and hands on get it done hard work late into the night.

 

Committees are great tools for getting feedback but are inefficient at making decisions, Steve Jobs / Microsoft , the difference is visionary / functionary , Avsim has always had its visionary , Tom Allensworth.

 

What built Avsim was an idea that grew with everybody’s time and effort, but much of what we see is someone’s vision of what it could be and the Library is at the core of Avsim, Tom has come up with a few damn good ideas over the last fifteen years, personally I am good with having a leader, it makes goals become reality by focusing efforts on the task at hand.

 

The task at hand is the Library and constructive commentary is not wasted , time spent in recrimination does not move the discussion forward , that’s the point, move forward.

[Garfield_x 5]

Also visionairs or leaders can make wrong decission once in a while as we have seen from f.i Microsoft in the past. They almost missed the internet and now they almost missed the tablet market.

And Microsoft have learned to listen to their users/contributors.

 

So i hope AVSIM will do too now.

And that is something i missed after the first attemp to redo the file library,

 

I'm not a person who easily post on subjects like this. Mostly i read it, think about it and let it happen.

But the way the users are treated this time was for me the last drop in the bucket.

If i would talk to customers in the job i have that way, i had no customers at all in no time, even if the customer is unfair to me i still be fair to them. I listen, i reply to them in a normal way and at the end the customer is happy and sometimes even apologise for his first behavior. And for the future i got a lot of credits from him.

 

There was a post of a staff member saying something like 'so what if one day there is no AVSIM anymore' well so be it.

There wil be alternatives, already present or wil be made the day there is no AVSIM.

There will be still a FS community if AVSIM would go down, but if the FS community goes down there is no reason for AVSIM to exists anymore.

So please come back to earth.

 

Committees are great tools for getting feedback but are inefficient at making decisions

True, but one can use the feedback to make a good decission. Unfortionally some of those feedback is deleted now.

 

What built Avsim was an idea that grew with everybody’s time and effort

Yes, everybody, not only AVSIM staff but the whole FS community. The last days i only heard some people yelling about the time they put in for AVSIM, but forgetting the hours all the uploaders had put in.

 

..and the Library is at the core of Avsim

.. and the core of the library are the files and the users spending hours to do their thing and upload their files to AVSIM for free.

 

from a deleted post

We had other more pressing reasons to change the library then "just do it for the sake of doing it." We don't have to explain that, as it was an operational decision.

Maybe to get more support for the third try (i suppose it will come one day again) it could be an idea to just explain the headlines why to change it.

 

To end with, maybe have a look at this TED Talk, we can learn a lot of this talk.

 

[media=]

[/media]

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Okay, I think I need to say a few things. First, Peter, I appreciate your input.

 

We fumbled this one pretty badly, and more to the point, I fumbled it badly. Some things have since been said on both sides of the library debate/discussion that probably should not have been said. We can't take those back and all we can do is move forward. Having said that, let me try to give a more detailed explanation of why we attempted to once again bring a new library system and why it did not become a matter of public discussion.

 

The legacy library is 10 years old. It is, in today's standards, a pretty shaky bit of code in that we no longer have its author around to support it, and it does not offer the abilility to expand features, look and feel that alternatives provide us. The FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE and the driver behind our desires to change the software is that it is unsupportable. If it breaks, the Database topples over, or whatever, there will not be a library for the period of time it takes to replace it from our backup systems. The point here is not that we can resurrect it, but that it breaks in the first place. That combined with what I feel are additional capabilities that we need to add, all add up to AVSIM wanting / needing to update the library system.

 

The new library that we tried to bring online fell on its face because of simple arhcitecture. It could not do as we asked of it to do, and we could not have known that until we had multiple users (as in LOTS of users) in it, doing their thing. As we were modifying it for our use, we had not indications that it would collapse under load.

 

The stuff that really matters here, if I am reading correctly, are pretty much this:

 

Some uploaders are upset that we brought the library online without prior participation, collaboration, consultation with them

Some are upset because we dismissed their concerns

Some are upset because we deleted a thread in which those complaints were voiced

Some are upset because they interpret these various issues as contempt by AVSIM and a total disregard of their contributions to the community

 

Mea Culpa. I can see where all of those come from and I understand the hard feelings about our actions. Again, what's done is done...Let me make a statement and a commitment.

 

The AVSIM Library IS a very important community asset.

Uploaders HAVE made it the important community asset that it is.

Uploaders will ALWAYS make the AVSIM Library important for as long as they desire to upload here.

AVSIM will CONTINUE to make the library as functional and feature rich as it can.

 

My commitment; we will not attempt to bring on another library without the participation of the community in its design and functionality. We will give all groups with vested interests in the library a means of participating in the design and testing of that library. When we do attempt to redesign our library, it will be stress tested to the greatest of our abilities to do so. Our library team will be the lead organization within AVSIM to listen to your suggestions, lead the design and provide you the feedback necessary to communicate where we heading, what we are and have accomplished and how the implementation of your ideas are progressing.

 

The library management team is your voice and your advocates. They have the authority and position within the AVSIM organization to represent the authors and users of the library. In the future, IF we go forward with another library effort, they will be the leadership team that will make it happen.

 

So, from me and the team, mea culpa. We blew this one pretty badly and your input has been heard. We have taken a lesson from this and we will bring the community into the process in the future.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Tom,

 

You have once again shown the sound judgment on sound decisions that shows sound leadership. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, your plans, and allowing us to share in the subsequent actions.

 

Kind regards,

[jbinner 15]

Below was also posted to AI's webpage.

 

Yes, we're reading. And I'd like to make one comment if I may? WE ARE Human, WE DO have feelings. I try to keep mine out of things, but from time to time they get the best of me. As a former US Marine, well sometimes by heart gets the best of my head and words are given. Sometimes they are not the correct words, but after being berated for 4+ years now, I was about at my limit.

 

Tom's reply in the last hour or so, which was published a link above this reply, goes into details as to why we feel the need to update the library:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/375784-why-are-all-topics-gone/page__pid__2385411#entry2385411

 

as a technician, I do give my input, but it's ultimately a decision made by either the Board or Tom that gives me my marching orders. In early 2010, the first choice I made was IPS software for our forums. It's very robust, has a ton of backend that we needed, and we chose it for our forums. Over time it evolved and gave us the ability to unify the front page and the forums into a common look. It also tightened down some security.

 

Bring into the freigh current events. It seems everyone needs to hear this from me, and it's not the only reason I am saying it, please understand that...I AM TRULLY SORRY it went the way it did with the library. AVSIM and Flight Sim in general is a labor of love for me; it fills two holes for me....one is not being able to go FAA when I left the Marines (Yes, I was a controller), and two it gives me tech-work to fill my off time with. I KNOW where our bread and butter comes from and it comes from org's such as AI, and others. Yes advertising helps, but as you are all aware that bandwidth isn't cheap. Maybe if Tom allows me to I will share the link showing how much bandwidth we use.

 

Anyway, I am off track, sorry. I DO listen to all....I really do and I lost my cool. I am not a politician, I am sometimes unable to cope with the amount of sheer complaints I see on a day to day basis. Coupled with my real-world job, single father, well I just got overwhelmed. I am sorry.

 

Rest assured I am here to support whatever we decide to do next. I want three words to be taken from this post, please:

 

I AM SORRY.

 

(will also be cross-posted to AVSIM thread above.)

 

John Binner, AVSIM

Technology Manager

 

p.s. if anyone would like to shoot the crap sometime about my background, I am more then willing to discuss it. :)

[momtchil 32]

It takes a lot of courage to post what Tom and John have here.

 

We are all proud to be working together and with the help of the FS community are looking forward to making AVSIM even better!

[fmcs500 0]

Posted on AIG forums (http://www.alpha-ind...28448#msg128448)

 

Hello everyone, especially the Avsim staff, members and team,

 

I'd like to welcome you and thank you for the comments posted here as a response to the unfortunate set of events that have transpired in the last week or so. I don't speak for the the rest of the AIG team but I'm glad that you took the time and effort to read up this thread and reply to it!

 

Obviously there is a lot of passion here among all our members, many of us have been around since Avsim's inception and has been our primary source of everything FS. There are also many of us here that have contributed to the library over the years and as such feel as there is a personal stake in what happens with the library.. The library in essence is our second home, it's were all our labours of love, passion and hobby is stored for the present and for future generations of simmers.

 

I hope that we can all work together, at least so to give input as to what we would like or not like in the library (within reason!) Have a say on what it should look like in terms of functionality.. And work on a better relationship between the Avsim team and members who upload and contribute to the great library that Avsim is, and will be in the future..

 

 

Cheers,

 

Frank Severino

[hippyonenine 1]

As one of the guys who was flamed by both Tom and John I have to say I am moved by the recent developments.

 

Let's agree to a new library which is functional and workeable. I fully understand that the code for the present set up is outdated and needs updating but what came about was completely unuseable.

 

If I can do anything to help in the transition please call on me as I realise I have been more of a downloader rather than a contributor.

 

My faith in you guys is restored

 

I have posted in the Alpha India thread that we are reconciled

 

Thanks

 

John

[Garfield_x 5]

Tom and Jonn D

Thank for your reactions, much appreciated, especially Jonh.

I know myself how hard it can be after spending lots of time on something and see it sliding away as sand through your fingers the day it is released.

But i still try to be calm, and before posting something in such cases, i reread it an hour after writing before i press the Post button. Most times i rewrite something to have it a calm down effect instead of an escalating effect. Its difficult but in time it gives more credits.

 

I hope it will not only be words Tom and that the third and final attemp will prove that.

I know lots of people have ideas or want to be heard, and everyone finds his or her idea the best of all :)

But when combined it can give an overview of which features people like in this library and what they like to see or expect from a new one.

I hope such an effort has be done in the past (not sure about it), but it still can be done.

See it as suggestions, not as demands of course.

Maybe just start two new threads. One called 'what i like in the present library' and one called 'what i would like to see in a new one' Just an idea.

Let people just put in thier ideas and thoughts but don't go in diiscussion to deep (only do it when things are not clear) and let it fill.

Combine the ideas and make some kind of top 10 and post that back.

Our company did such thing when it was time to replace the VB6 application for a new modern one. We did not start building it with only our ideas and after 2 years put it into action saying 'that's it, you must work with it if you iike it or not'. (A competitor did once and it's not there anymore, we still are)

A selected group of customers had the opportunity to look and test it from the early stages on.

It took us more times to get it ready but the support for the new application was overwhelming.

 

AVSIM has grown big because of the easy use of the library as it is now.

So a new one should be easy to use too.(and not that feature rich as the last one (my personal thought))

 

To end with, have a look at Google, and the history of the search engines

Why did the Google search did grow so hard after there start? Because it was minimalistic in comparison with the searach engines at that time, not feature rich like the others but easy to use.

The very early search engines where quit minimalistic too, then they start to add features and feautures, the serach pages became portals and the core business of those portals were not search engines anymore but big massive pages.

Then Google came with there almost empty page showing how easy/minimalistic a search engine could be. In that case less was more,

 

So lets see how future will develop.