So who's made the switch from FSX?

[GoranM 3,771]

I think Stephens approach will make this forum readership greater decrease..... since when do we all have to have the same opinion.

 

I know for a fact, that many more x plane developers and users will be frequenting and posting in the avsim forums if the FSX vs x plane debates and comparisons stopped. They choose to go to X Pilot or x plane.org because these debates are non-existent at those forums.

Personally, I would be much more active in here because I really do enjoy helping people with X Plane. At the moment, unfortunately, ignorance is definitely bliss.

[LAdamson 240]

I know for a fact, that many more x plane developers and users will be frequenting and posting in the avsim forums if the FSX vs x plane debates and comparisons stopped. They choose to go to X Pilot or x plane.org because these debates are non-existent at those forums.

Personally, I would be much more active in here because I really do enjoy helping people with X Plane. At the moment, unfortunately, ignorance is definitely bliss.

 

The org. is definately "protected"...........all right.

I had a difference of opinion with the owner, comparing a well known P-51 for X-Plane, and the RealAir (FS9) Spitfire. Since I've flown in a real

P-51D Mustang, I feel that I've got some opinions on the matter. Can't say I cared for the X-Plane version, which I paid for. Never the less, the org. owner got the last word..........that the XP9 P-51 was far superior..........and required my farther post's to be monitored......if displayed at all.

 

Of course, at X Pilot, it seems that there are adverse thoughts about the org. too. Sometimes, these two (X-Plane) websites don't even get along.

[Murmur 3,944]

I had a difference of opinion with the owner, comparing a well known P-51 for X-Plane, and the RealAir (FS9) Spitfire. Since I've flown in a real

P-51D Mustang, I feel that I've got some opinions on the matter. Can't say I cared for the X-Plane version, which I paid for. Never the less, the org. owner got the last word..........that the XP9 P-51 was far superior..........and required my farther post's to be monitored......if displayed at all.

 

Has the thread been deleted? Can't find it, was curious to read it...

 

Marco

[GoranM 3,771]

Larry

I'm afraid you still don't get it.

It's perfectly fine for people to ask what X plane has that FSX doesn't and vice versa. But when people come in here, like "fs_av" and start criticising LR for not including an easier scenery developer software, or "gregerrm" constantly complaining about the scenery, or you saying "I fly both but FSX has some very good quality aircraft, etc, ad nauseam, it completely turns other x plane "professionals" off from even coming in here. Like Stephen said, if you don't fly or like X Plane, then don't bother coming in here.

There is nothing more off putting than someone asking a question, like the OP did, it gets answered with a slight comparison to FSX (which is fine) and then it turns into some pointless argument...again...about which sim is better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...don't you find it interesting that there are only 2-3 developers (out of at least a couple dozen) who post anything on here at all? Tom Kyler, Morten Melhaus and myself. However, even Tom and Morten have slowed down or stopped posting. Why? Well, I think we know the answer to that, yes?

We don't want to answer a question about X Plane, only to be followed up by someone coming in and shining the spotlight on FSX in some fashion.

[fs_av 0]

It's perfectly fine for people to ask what X plane has that FSX doesn't and vice versa. But when people come in here, like "fs_av" and start criticising LR for not including an easier scenery developer software, or "gregerrm" constantly complaining about the scenery, or you saying "I fly both but FSX has some very good quality aircraft, etc, ad nauseam, it completely turns other x plane "professionals" off from even coming in here. Like Stephen said, if you don't fly or like X Plane, then don't bother coming in here.

GoranM, I don't think you get it. Needless to say, I disagree with the assertions above.

 

First, let's be clear on my criticism about WED, "scenery developer software" as you called it. My criticism is basically twofold :

 

1. WED, supposedly a replacement for the Worldmaker of old, is NOT bundled with the main program like Planemaker or Airfoilmaker are. Why is that? WED, according to Austin, is Ben's application and treats it like a "pariah"; Austin/LR has no obligation to support, continue development or maintain compatibility with future updates or versions.

 

2. LR has removed features whenever it feels like it, thanks to the frequent updates; e.g. removal of the facade making capability from Worldmaker (v8/v9), removal of keyboard flying capability i.e. without a mouse or joystick, etc. Even if the features removed were not all that popular, meaning not many people actually used them, that should not give LR the automatic license to remove either of them! I mention the two features that were removed because I personally liked using each one of them, particularly because I concentrated more on development rather than flying and couldn't be bothered with the mouse or investing in a joystick that I would use rarely, if at all. I understand that a plugin for keyboard control was later developed to fill the void/need. But, it's not the same.

 

**********************^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********************^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*******************

 

It seems like you are unclear about what the priorities are or should be.

 

Patients do not exist because there are doctors. Users don't exist because there are "professionals". This X-plane forum exists for the users. Developers are also welcome - atleast until, despite forum rules and guidelines, they cross the line from posting opinions or information to pushing commercial products. And, BTW, there is a separate protected "X-Plane Add-On Developer's Forum". I don't know why it is "protected".

"...don't you find it interesting that there are only 2-3 developers (out of at least a couple dozen) who post anything on here at all?"

Not really. First, you assume that to be true. Secondly, MANY USERS ARE DEVELOPERS TOO, they may not be "commercial" developers like you and Tom or openly declare themselves as developers. Additionally, for every developer like you, there are perhaps hundreds more who are not "commercial" developers. MortenM, a freeware developer todate AFAIK, is one who has been around for quite a while and has made some amazing contributions over the years, along with his colleagues at X-plane Freeware group.

 

One can come up with a myriad of reasons why developers may choose to not post here at AVSIM, OR ANYWHERE ELSE for that matter. In X-plane's case, there aren't that many "commercial" developers to begin with - and again, one can come up with many reasons why that's the case - but that's a topic for another day perhaps!

[raymar 969]

This makes for some great reading. I haven't had so much fun since the hogs ate my little sister. Keep these great posts coming, I love it.

 

Ray

[tf51d 284]

It's no secret, that I have had issues with X-Plane myself, although I would say XP10 is a giant leap forward ( as well as some downsides) then we had with XP9. The first issue though you have posted have no basis in fact though, and the second you seem to think a developer has the obligation to give you or not take away features.

 

1. WED, supposedly a replacement for the Worldmaker of old, is NOT bundled with the main program like Planemaker or Airfoilmaker are. Why is that? WED, according to Austin, is Ben's application and treats it like a "pariah"; Austin/LR has no obligation to support, continue development or maintain compatibility with future updates or versions.

 

If you listened to the AVSIM teamspeak conference with Austin, he does nothing but rave about it, and makes it sound like it's the next best thing since sliced bread! It hardly sounds like he thinks it's a "pariah". I (and I think everyone here) would like to know the source for your statement? Maybe we missed something and Austin is just lying on the conference.

 

2. LR has removed features whenever it feels like it, thanks to the frequent updates; e.g. removal of the facade making capability from Worldmaker (v8/v9), removal of keyboard flying capability i.e. without a mouse or joystick, etc. Even if the features removed were not all that popular, meaning not many people actually used them, that should not give LR the automatic license to remove either of them! I mention the two features that were removed because I personally liked using each one of them, particularly because I concentrated more on development rather than flying and couldn't be bothered with the mouse or investing in a joystick that I would use rarely, if at all. I understand that a plugin for keyboard control was later developed to fill the void/need. But, it's not the same.

 

What features a developer adds or removes are their own prerogative! It's their product, and LR is not the only developer that does this. For example PMDG took it upon themselves with the NGX to arbitrarily remove (After the initial release in SP1C) Sid/s and Stars defined in ones flight plans, (Like the ones from flightaware) which messes up those that use the default ATC, since it no longer matches the FS flight plan. Which forces you to reinsert them manually. I don't see people saying they didn't have right to remove that functionality. Whether the user community agrees or not they respond with their credit cards.

[GoranM 3,771]

GoranM, I don't think you get it. Needless to say, I disagree with the assertions above.

 

First, let's be clear on my criticism about WED, "scenery developer software" as you called it. My criticism is basically twofold :

 

1. WED, supposedly a replacement for the Worldmaker of old, is NOT bundled with the main program like Planemaker or Airfoilmaker are. Why is that? WED, according to Austin, is Ben's application and treats it like a "pariah"; Austin/LR has no obligation to support, continue development or maintain compatibility with future updates or versions.

 

Yeah? So? As far as I'm concerned, X Plane is Austin's project. For all I care, he can turn it into "Laminar Researches methods of cooking spaghetti and meatballs". As you said yourself, Austin, nor anyone at LR are obligated to support, continue development or maintain compatibility with future updates or versions. but he also has no obligation to inform you, me or anyone else out there about the direction X plane is going and the software being taken out of it or replaced with other software. Which is why i find it baffling that you would constantly complain about it.

 

2. LR has removed features whenever it feels like it, thanks to the frequent updates; e.g. removal of the facade making capability from Worldmaker (v8/v9), removal of keyboard flying capability i.e. without a mouse or joystick, etc. Even if the features removed were not all that popular, meaning not many people actually used them, that should not give LR the automatic license to remove either of them! I mention the two features that were removed because I personally liked using each one of them, particularly because I concentrated more on development rather than flying and couldn't be bothered with the mouse or investing in a joystick that I would use rarely, if at all. I understand that a plugin for keyboard control was later developed to fill the void/need. But, it's not the same.

 

Are you kidding? LR has an automatic license to do whatever they want. I don't understand 1 iota of your thinking or logic.

 

**********************^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*********************^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*******************

It seems like you are unclear about what the priorities are or should be.

 

Patients do not exist because there are doctors. Users don't exist because there are "professionals". This X-plane forum exists for the users. Developers are also welcome - atleast until, despite forum rules and guidelines, they cross the line from posting opinions or information to pushing commercial products. And, BTW, there is a separate protected "X-Plane Add-On Developer's Forum". I don't know why it is "protected".

 

Not really. First, you assume that to be true. Secondly, MANY USERS ARE DEVELOPERS TOO, they may not be "commercial" developers like you and Tom or openly declare themselves as developers. Additionally, for every developer like you, there are perhaps hundreds more who are not "commercial" developers. MortenM, a freeware developer todate AFAIK, is one who has been around for quite a while and has made some amazing contributions over the years, along with his colleagues at X-plane Freeware group.

 

One can come up with a myriad of reasons why developers may choose to not post here at AVSIM, OR ANYWHERE ELSE for that matter. In X-plane's case, there aren't that many "commercial" developers to begin with - and again, one can come up with many reasons why that's the case - but that's a topic for another day perhaps!

 

Morten is now a commercial developer. He has made it public knowledge that he is working on the IXEG 737.

And like I said, I know for a fact that developers don't post here because it doesn't make sense to post in a forum where they are not made to feel welcome by pro FSX users who keep coming in saying "FSX is better!" or "X Plane is good but SO IS FSX and 3rd party developers will keep it going!".

They would rather stick to a forum where their opinions and statements of X Plane are actually appreciated and not always hosed down by the select few armchair FSX fire fighters. They are definitely in the minority, but it's the minority that ruin it for everyone else.

As I said, speaking for myself, I choose not to post much here anymore. For very obvious reasons.

So, feel free to have an opinion, and if the FSX crowd want to keep posting how good FSX is in an x plane forum, by all means, go right ahead. It'll just turn the few X Plane developers and users away even further...unfortunately...It particularly discourages and disappoints me because I have been a long time avsim member (since 1999 I think when PSS made their 747-400 for FS2000).

[fs_av 0]

I (and I think everyone here) would like to know the source for your statement?

 

I believe Austin mentioned WED as Ben's application either in the teamspeak or somewhere else, I am not sure; and since it is not bundled with X-plane 10 Global unlike Planemaker or Worldmaker in v5/v6/v7/v8/v9, which were bundled with the main program.

 

Worldmaker was a more versatile comprehensive program compared to WED and it was thrown by the wayside without the necessary attention devoted to WED for it's debut with v8 (some 7 or so years ago). WED, nice as it is, still lacks the full functionality of Worldmaker.

******************

If you look at my post a little more carefully, perhaps you will see that I used the word "license", not "right". That was deliberate on my part. Let me post the exact quote here in case you missed it :

Even if the features removed were not all that popular, meaning not many people actually used them, that should not give LR the automatic license to remove either of them!

There is a certain level of obligation/loyalty/duty/continuity on the part of a software publisher to it's existing user base. Doesn't LR owe an explanation as to why certain features are deleted even when they are working? In the past, the attitude has been that "if you don't like an update, don't use it". Windows updates don't work that way, meaning they just don't arbitrarily delete features or leave you hanging. Perhaps LR can learn something there.

 

Whether the user community agrees or not they respond with their credit cards.

 

The difference is you pay for the whole thing upfront, including for however many updates; and there is no refund or moneyback gurantee.

[GoranM 3,771]

I believe Austin mentioned WED as Ben's application either in the teamspeak or somewhere else, I am not sure; and since it is not bundled with X-plane 10 Global unlike Planemaker or Worldmaker in v5/v6/v7/v8/v9, which were bundled with the main program.

 

Worldmaker was a more versatile comprehensive program compared to WED and it was thrown by the wayside without the necessary attention devoted to WED for it's debut with v8 (some 7 or so years ago). WED, nice as it is, still lacks the full functionality of Worldmaker.

******************

 

What is it with you and Worldmaker?? I have never seen someone hold a grudge against a company and then follow it up with a crusade against that company as much as you have been doing for software that has been obsolete for several years. Worldmaker is gone. Why can't you just accept that?

 

If you look at my post a little more carefully, perhaps you will see that I used the word "license", not "right". That was deliberate on my part. Let me post the exact quote here in case you missed it :

 

There is a certain level of obligation/loyalty/duty/continuity on the part of a software publisher to it's existing user base. Doesn't LR owe an explanation as to why certain features are deleted even when they are working? In the past, the attitude has been that "if you don't like an update, don't use it". Windows updates don't work that way, meaning they just don't arbitrarily delete features or leave you hanging. Perhaps LR can learn something there.

 

No. There is nothing in any EULA associated with LR that says they owe you anything other than a functioning piece of software. If you're so into morals and ethics, maybe you should start some kind of scenery application company and run it by your work ethic. If you feel it to be the "right" method, then you should become very successful at it.

And BTW, you're comparing Windows (associated with a company that has a worth of roughly $127 Billion and tens of thousands of employees around the world) to Laminar Research which has a worth of somewhere in the millions or tens of millions and a staff of less than 20. Brilliant comparison.

 

The difference is you pay for the whole thing upfront, including for however many updates; and there is no refund or moneyback gurantee.

 

Did you forget that LR always issue a free demo for download so people can try it out before they buy it?

-sigh-

 

Edit: And FYI, check out point number 3 on this link...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/license?s=t

[airlinejets 709]

I think Stephen knows exactly what he is doing. It has nothing to do with censorship. If I want to talk or to promote FSX, I can go to the forum Avsim graciously provides for those enthusiasts. I chose 8 months ago to move on from FSX and I come here to find out what's new in the community. The insistence of certain Avsim members to control the outcome of the posts in the X-Plane sub-forum is totally unacceptable!

 

I'm really, really tired of seeing perfectly valid threads being locked because some members (always the same guys) have an agenda.

[LAdamson 240]

Thinking about this today.............

 

For several years, especially since MS pulled the plug on future full fledged flight sims.............Austin (the creator of X-Plane) has been touting the superiority of X-Plane over FSX. He claims that real pilots will be won over, and notice the amazing difference. Note: I'm not looking up exact quotes, and there ARE real pilots that like the program. Some like it even better that FSX.

 

Therefor, since X-Plane is put on such a high pedestal by it's creator...............it's within reason to disagree, if we don't believe it's as far up to the heights of reality, as claimed. So yes, I will stand by the fact that FSX will keep going, due to third parties. And I know without doubt, that X-Plane is NOT exceeding some of the best models available for FSX. As I've said over and over, X-Plane must stand on it's own. I get tired of this blade element theory versus lookup table argument. I get tired of blanket generalized statements, and will continue to disagree if the need arises. Just blame it on Austin Meyer...........if you will. He's the one that figures it exceeds all others!

 

L.Adamson

[LAdamson 240]

Has the thread been deleted? Can't find it, was curious to read it...

 

Marco

 

I have no idea. It's probably been two years or so. Had to do with rudder response. At the time, I got a personal e-mail from Nicholas........and all future posts went to moderation.

X-Plane org..............if a safe haven alright, because of the moderation, which usually deletes any opposing views. X-Pilot still doesn't have enough traffic. FWIW---- I'm not worried about what XP-10 has or doesn't have. It doesn't bother me at all. I figure it will keep improving. I just like keeping a more even ground in the XP versus MSFS debate. I have no financial interest either way.

 

L.Adamson

[airlinejets 709]

Thinking about this today.............

 

For several years, especially since MS pulled the plug on future full fledged flight sims.............Austin (the creator of X-Plane) has been touting the superiority of X-Plane over FSX. He claims that real pilots will be won over, and notice the amazing difference. Note: I'm not looking up exact quotes, and there ARE real pilots that like the program. Some like it even better that FSX.

 

Therefor, since X-Plane is put on such a high pedestal by it's creator...............it's within reason to disagree, if we don't believe it's as far up to the heights of reality, as claimed. So yes, I will stand by the fact that FSX will keep going, due to third parties. And I know without doubt, that X-Plane is NOT exceeding some of the best models available for FSX. As I've said over and over, X-Plane must stand on it's own. I get tired of this blade element theory versus lookup table argument. I get tired of blanket generalized statements, and will continue to disagree if the need arises. Just blame it on Austin Meyer...........if you will. He's the one that figures it exceeds all others!

 

L.Adamson

 

...you just don't get it, do you?

[LAdamson 240]

...you just don't get it, do you?

 

Of course I do. I've been around X-Plane, MSFS, and others............since the invention. I also own all these items.

So..................what don't I get.

 

BTW---- You moved on from FSX..........mind stating why? Personally, I'm not moving on from anything, or solely to anything............until it exactly takes the place of real flight. I told my wife, who loves real (GA) flying, that we could just sit side by side at the computer desk, and explore the world. She didn't go for it.

 

L.Adamson