How much do you use rudder pedals?

[LAdamson 240]

Well, I do of course use rudder when I use aileron. My 'problem' is that I also use rudder to fly WITHOUT aileron. When I am flying low and slow through a valley I only use rudder to correct my heading or to make small turns, so without ever touching the aileron. I wonder if that's ok or really not done in real life. It works like a charm in Flight but well... that doesn't mean it's realistic.

 

Imagine you're flying low over a runway. To move from one side to the other.........you use ailerons. To point the nose straight down the runway, you use rudder.

 

As for the RV, from the RV resident............I use lots of right rudder on takeoff. It will pull hard to the left. I use rudder to make sure the nose is aligned with the runway for landing. If using a taildragger, that's extremely important. The nose MUST be aligned with the direction of travel before the tailwheel touches down. Otherwise, the tail wants to continue in the same direction. That's where you hear about "swapping ends" for tail draggers. Nosewheel airplanes are more forgiving, as they want to straighten themselves out. The RV uses frize ailerons. The leading edge dips below the wing, to limit yaw. They also have differential, in which the aileron has more up than down. The wings are also low aspect ratio......short. This is why, most turns need no assistance from rudder.

 

L.Adamson

[Oracle427 45]

ps. why hasn't anyone marketed a "force feedback yoke"?

 

Extraordinarily expensive for what you get IMHO, but it exists.

 

http://www.beh.ch/index.php?id=143?&L=4

 

I don't want to violate any commercial agreements by posting a price. It is probably more than 10x what you expect it to cost!

 

This next one looks fishy mainly because every picture I have ever seen of it is CGI.

 

http://www.flightillusion.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=ilvm_fly_admirable.tpl&product_id=87&category_id=26&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=58&vmcchk=1&Itemid=58

 

I've heard so many bad reviews of cheaper FFB hardware that I've been turned away by it. I guess that is why the low-end stuff ceased to exist.

 

However, I would love it if I could get my hands on it for a reasonable price.

[Bobsk8 12,730]

My understanding was that *turns* were done with coordinated aileron and rudder, while small corrections to keep on a course were normally done with just rudder. This didn't always make sense to me, and didn't work well in flight sims. It still doesn't work well in Flight except for the Maule, which can be controlled quite well without ailerons... just keep your rudder corrections subtle.

 

My use of rudder pedals in flight simming goes back at least as far as the A10 Cuba! game. In those days the rudders were used mainly for taxiing, not much during flight. I got the CH Pro Pedals to use them for car racing games as well, so flight simming use was a bonus.

 

I think one reason a lot of people haven't used rudder pedals much is that many times aircraft in flight sims simply don't exhibit any adverse yaw. This includes even good payware aircraft: the Carenado Cessna C337 Skymaster has absolutely no adverse yaw; the numbers in the air file are zeros. I know we have some 337 pilots here, perhaps someone can tell us how much adverse yaw the real 337 has.

 

Hook

 

When I flew a Level D 767-400ER sim at Delta some years ago, as I was following the ILS on final, the instructor pilot told me to use the rudder only to correct any small alignment problems on short final with the ILS and avoid using the ailerons, in order to not have any wing wobble. I was surprised at this, but it worked perfectly.

[LHookins 3,103]

Bobsk8, thanks for all the info. I'm guessing you didn't get to take the controls of the Skymaster, so you can't answer the adverse yaw question.

 

I just did an approach in the Maule. On downwind, abeam the threshold, I was trimmed for flight at the final flap setting. I did the base and final turns using only rudder, no aileron, and used only throttle for descent. Had no problem lining up with the runway and keeping on the glideslope. I didn't touch the yoke until I had to flare. Gentle corrections with the rudder pedals, and the ball never strayed from center. Note that you probably can't do this with the Stearman, for instance.

 

I remember a real world pilot complaining a couple of months ago that this wasn't possible in Flight.

 

Hook

[Great Ozzie 101]

Bobsk8, thanks for all the info. I'm guessing you didn't get to take the controls of the Skymaster, so you can't answer the adverse yaw question.

 

Sincere apologies Hook... I mistook your question about adverse yaw to have related to the yaw associated with "loss of an engine" on a twin.

 

I got my license in the C-152 and I think it is a great aircraft, and fun to fly at a reasonable cost.

 

I hope you not thinking I am implying otherwise. I think it's a great little plane too. I meant to imply I thoroughly enjoyed instructing in it. A bit of modding and Cessna produced the Aerobat. There's a number of STC's available for modding a 152 (Texas Taildragger, Sparrow Hawk etc.). Only "beef" I had with the little thing was the cockpit is rather small.

 

I did the base and final turns using only rudder, no aileron, and used only throttle for descent. Had no problem lining up with the runway and keeping on the glideslope. I didn't touch the yoke until I had to flare. Gentle corrections with the rudder pedals, and the ball never strayed from center.

 

Bizarre.

[jcomm 5,938]

If my Wife didn't use this computer, I would have them hooked up forever. However, since she gets on this computer throughout the day, I'm sick and tired of unhooking my yoke and pedals

 

I solved that easily - she will use the rudder pedals for feet resting while working at the computer :-) For me it'll be fine for MS FLIGHT, for her it'll be fine, even if too expensive, for prevention of varicose veins ;-)

[RoboRay 126]

 

I solved that easily - she will use the rudder pedals for feet resting while working at the computer :-) For me it'll be fine for MS FLIGHT, for her it'll be fine, even if too expensive, for prevention of varicose veins ;-)

 

Or Very Close Veins, as my aunt says.

[Bobsk8 12,730]

Imagine you're flying low over a runway. To move from one side to the other.........you use ailerons. To point the nose straight down the runway, you use rudder.

L.Adamson

 

"Wheel for the wind, rudder for the runway." .... is the way I was taught, and it works every time. I loved practicing crosswind landings

[TheBFG 1]

Most prop aircraft require almost no rudder under normal operation, rudder being used sometimes only during takeoffs and landings, and some high power steep climbs.

 

This is absolutely not true! I've never flown any prop aircraft that didn't require rudder action most of the time, at least for every turn. If I was to have a control cable break, I'd pray it was the ailerons and not the rudder. Remember also that rudder correction isn't used DURING a turn, but as you enter/exit the turn.

[jcomm 5,938]

The Cessna 152 required right rudder during high power climbing (and slow flight, iirc), left rudder during low power descending, and normal turn coordination.

 

And since we are in this interesting subject, and you have RL experience, please confirm that the effects on climb and descent are primarily in Yaw and not in Roll (?).

 

The reason you need left rudder on low power descents is certainly the fact that the aircraft is designed with a canted engine or fin, for cruise, and when you reduce power and the slipstream and other prop effects almost vanish, that correction built into the aircraft structure, or imposed by a rudder tab, taked precedence..

 

Most sims I have used, with the exception of ELITE, translate this effects a lot more into roll/bank then yaw... All situations I have been in RL, flying for instance on a glider tug, show the ball well displaced from center, requiring rudder, while the wings stay almost level.

[LHookins 3,103]

And since we are in this interesting subject, and you have RL experience, please confirm that the effects on climb and descent are primarily in Yaw and not in Roll (?).

 

Definitely in yaw, not in roll. And my RL experience is barely enough to qualify as experience.

 

Hook

[Oracle427 45]

The effect starts as yaw and will quickly translate into yaw and roll if unchecked as the right wing is moving faster through the air and generating more lift.

 

What is worse is that if you try to counter the roll with ailerons, you will increase the yaw to the left by adding in adverse yaw and then things begin to get really ugly.

 

Of course, this is based on experience in a 172. Every aircraft is different.

[jcomm 5,938]

Definitely in yaw, not in roll. And my RL experience is barely enough to qualify as experience.

 

Hook

 

Thx for confirming Hook... It's been a long demand in the old times of MSFS and also with Laminar Research and the Xplane series, because, as you may certainly know only too well, these sims translate all of it, or almost all of it, into roll :-(

 

MS FLIGHT isn't that better in this area unfortunately, and I still can't understand why no other but ELITE was able to change this "feature"...

 

The effect starts as yaw and will quickly translate into yaw and roll if unchecked as the right wing is moving faster through the air and generating more lift.

 

What is worse is that if you try to counter the roll with ailerons, you will increase the yaw to the left by adding in adverse yaw and then things begin to get really ugly.

 

Of course, this is based on experience in a 172. Every aircraft is different

 

Thank you too Oracle! Yes, yaw-induced roll. Aircraft with high dihedral do it even better :-)

[TheBFG 1]

The reasons behind rudder inputs for different power settings has been explained pretty well, maybe a quick look at the "why" of turning:

 

When you turn the yoke left, the left aileron moves up and the right aileron down. You are essentially changing the angle of attack of the wingtips. The left wingtip is now generating less lift, the right wingtip more, hence the roll of the aircraft. But as we know, a byproduct of lift is drag. The right wingtip is now dragging more, the left wingtip less. This results in yaw to the RIGHT, which must be corrected by applying left rudder to keep the aircraft from skidding.

 

The term "coordinated aileron and rudder control" seems so simple but is still misunderstood. It means exactly that, when you move the yoke left, you move the rudder left as well, and when the turn is established and you move the yoke back to centre, the rudder must come with too. So they move together, with each other, coordinated. So a good place to start is to do just that, and you'll see that the ball behaves much better. Every aircraft will have a different relationship as far as how much rudder is required for how much aileron, and you'll still need to make rudder corrections for power settings on top of the above, but start by just copying whatever your yoke does with the rudder.

 

The opposite also holds true though. If you just apply left rudder, the aircraft will yaw left, causing the right wing to travel through the air faster than the left. This results in roll to the left. Now some people are saying that flightsim doesn't do this correctly because the aircraft just rolls left, doesn't yaw. I think if you look carefully you'll realise that in fact the aircraft is yawing, the roll is a result of that yaw. When flying a real aircraft, you often sit with the yoke slightly off centre, even to counteract one fuel tank being fuller than the other. You therefore won't notice this roll as much, as you're constantly keeping the wings level, yoke centered or not. Your feet will know all about it though as you push on that right pedal.

 

So in the sim, look at the ball. When you experience what you think is a left roll instead of left yaw due to power, I'll bet the ball isn't centered, and actually the roll is indeed a result of yaw. Put in some right rudder and watch how the roll stops. You'll probably notice the stop of roll much more than the stop of yaw, because sitting at a desk, you just can't feel the yaw and have no indication thereof other than the ball. Roll makes the whole horizon move, so it just seems more aparent.

[Air1 136]

I got my PPL in a C-150 and the shoulder space is even less then the C-152. I have time in the C-152 Arobat, that was a blast. It had a quick release pin on the door in case you had to bail out. It was a blast to fly. Also learned the open the doors trick, worked will. I do have Combat pedals on order from Amazon and will use them most of the time. I also have CH analog pedal in the basement and just have been putting of replaceing them. Then FLIGHT came along.