Programming high speed below 10

[xkoote 57]

Here's one that has me scratching. Is the 250<10000' hard wired into the FMS?

Can't seem to find that page where it can be modified.

 

Regards,

 

Xander

[Loren Larsa 9]

Yes, because you are not allowed in the real world to fly faster than 250 knots below 10k feet.

Some heavies can get a relief on this restriction, but if you want to override it ,you may have to set it manually, but you won't be able to go too fast as the air and you will stress the airframe.

[xxJohnxx 21]

Well I am sorry Loren, however intact you can set a higher speed restriction into the MD-11 FMC.

I don't have the manual with me, neither I have my FSX PC running, however if I remember right to set a speed limit you have to do following steps:

-Go to F-PLN page

-Scroll down to one of your descent waypoints

-Hit the left LSK beside one of the descent waypoints

-You will get onto the page where you can set waypoint options, like NEXT WAYPOINT or AIRWAY. However if I remember correctly you should now see in the lower left the 250/10000 restriction and you should be able to see it.

Please note: I am not sure if I remember it correctly, but you have definitively to do it on the F-PLN page, and it is to my knowledge accessible at descent waypoint.

 

If I have time I will check it later for you and explain the "right" way, however I am not sure if I will have time or not.

 

Jonathan

[FLEX1978 373]

Loren, let's try not to spread misinformation here, there is enough of it in the simworld. Your post sounded like you decided to guess based on something another flightsimmer has told you.

[xxJohnxx 21]

Hi Xander,

 

Okay, ignore what I wrote above, now I have the right way for you:

-Go to F-PLN page

-Scroll down to your first waypoint after top of climb/before top of descent.

-Press PAGE

-Hit the LSK right of one of the cruise waypoints

-Press Page

-Now hopfully you are on the VERT REV page. In the second lower right line you now can set the DES SPD LIM, which is what you are looking for :wink:

I am not sure if there is a CLB SPD LIM somwhere too, but I think so. You maybe search a little bit.

 

Best regards,

 

Jonathan

 

EDIT:

 

You can alternativly also do this:

-Go to F-PLN page.

-Hit any LSK on the right side beside a waypoint before TOC/ after TOD.

-Now you should be on the VERT REV page too, and if you do that with waypoints prior TOC you can set the climb restriction here to.

Hope that helps

[Loren Larsa 9]

Loren, let's try not to spread misinformation here, there is enough of it in the simworld. Your post sounded like you decided to guess based on something another flightsimmer has told you.

Well in truth I haven't set it to go over the 250 restriction below 10k myself, only in the 747 to be honest, however my point stands that you will not be able to gain much extra speed before you enter the red tape and an overspeed condition is present.

Might give this a try and see how she behaves though just for the fun of it.

[FLEX1978 373]

You can easily achieve 340 knots on a high speed departure in a clean config, thats a big difference.

[xkoote 57]

Ok thanks Jonathan, found it.

 

BTW In real world as in FlightSim there's really no difference if I fly 320 at 17000 or at 2500. It's the same stress.

 

 

Regards,

 

Xander

[Paul_Smith 92]

...not allowed in the real world to fly faster than 250 knots below 10k feet...

 

Just to make it absolutely clear... It is not considered polite to exceed 250knots below 10k feet because it is usually quite noisy, but given that a 737-200 at 200 knots is still louder then a 737-800 at 300 knots, it is all relative. There is no law, convention or treaty, national or international, that you will be in breach of, and no safety issue that you that you are explicitly at risk from by exceeding this 'request'. It is a generally accepted standard through out the world, and while some locations take it more seriously then others, safety of flight ALWAYS comes first.

[kevinh 409]

Just to make it absolutely clear... It is not considered polite to exceed 250knots below 10k feet because it is usually quite noisy, but given that a 737-200 at 200 knots is still louder then a 737-800 at 300 knots, it is all relative. There is no law, convention or treaty, national or international, that you will be in breach of, and no safety issue that you that you are explicitly at risk from by exceeding this 'request'. It is a generally accepted standard through out the world, and while some locations take it more seriously then others, safety of flight ALWAYS comes first.

The 250 kts below 10,000 ft rule has nothing to do with noise and everything to do with air traffic safety. The rule came about after the mid-air collision between a United DC-8 and a TWA Super Constellation in Dec 1960 over New York. The DC-8, flying at over 400 kts, missed a waypoint and collided with the slower moving Connie. It's unsafe to mix slow moving and high speed traffic in congested areas. However the limit can be exceeded with ATC permission, for example 250 knots might be too slow for a heavily laden 747 to safely climb clean. It isn't a speed limit which is taken less seriously in some parts than others. It isn't applied everywhere if there's no good reason too. The UK doesn't apply it in all air space for example, and that's hardly a country which is lax on regulation.

[crazy voyager 13]

AFAIK in Sweden it only applies in the TMAs of Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö.

 

And as stated above the UK only use it in certain airspace classes (for VFR in C,D,E,F,G and IFR in D,E,F,G).

[hopskip 253]

250kts below 10,000ft is an ATC requirement, put in place to avoid middair collisions.

 

ATC can waver this requirement, but it has to be activley done (ie ATC has to specifically tell a specific aircraft that it can fly faster at this specific time).

 

ATC would also need to co-ordinate this with other ATC. For example if an Approach/Departure controller gave a departing 747 a wavier of the 250kts, he needs to have co-ordinated - ie: Gotten permision of any other controllers that 747 may pass before it gets to 10,000ft, such as Centre controllers or other Approach/Departure controllers.

 

Some aircraft (747s are a good example, even the MD11 at heavy weights) cannot climb 'clean' (ie with flaps and slats up) at 250kts and would need to acellerate more to retract flaps.

 

Flaps add lift but increase drag. Climbing with flaps extended reduces the rate of climb in the long run, so the aircraft is spending longer amounts of time at lower altitudes and/or at higher power settings.

 

I have personally seen the PMDG 747-400 have flap up speed sitting around 280knots indicated. While it is by no means guarenteed that ATC will allow any given aircraft to exceed this speed (no point in letting a 747 acellerate to 300kts when the aircraft right ahead of it and flying the same departure SID or ATS route is doing 250kts) it's worth asking if it will help the operation of the aircraft.

 

You would not be permitted to exceed 250kts below 10,000ft without instruction from ATC, but you can of course activley ask if you need to. Sometimes ATC will grant this "Cancel speed below 10,000ft" type of instruction without the pilot asking based on the Aircraft Type (They know 747's going long distance may need 280kts to retract flap).

 

With the MD11, it can usually get to flap zero before 250kts, but that (huge massive) leading edge slat provides quite a lot of lift, and at heavy weights it isn't unusual for it's speed bug (Slats Retracted, Flap up) to be at a higher speed than 250kts.

 

Trent Hopkinson

[Ramón Cutanda 4]

Thanks soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for this thread. I had read here and there about heavy planes needing to climb above 250 knots below 10,000 feet. And I knew it had something to do with safety... But never really figured out why and, because that never was a problem for me before, I didn't search much about it.

 

But now the MD-11 was turning me crazy because I DID ENTERED a 250 knots climb restriction below 10.000 feet but the MD-11 ignored it over and over again and I was blaming myself for not programming the FMC correctly. I had follow the tutorial, read the FMS manual, check the forums...

 

I'm using TOPCAT for my performance calculations, so I knew I was doing things "more or less" properly. I always take off within the weight limits, vertical speeds are OK... but the FMC always sets a climb speed of between 260 and 270 knots even though I manually set a 250/10000 limit. Now I now why MD-11 ignores that limit. It simply can't fly at that "low" speed with clean wings.

 

I do all my cargo flights with a TOW well over 250,000 kilos (550,000 lbs), so that's the reason why MD-11 is always ignoring my climb restrictions. In my next flight I'll try a "lighter" take-off to check if the 250/10000 is then possible.

 

By the way... I have to say that the reason why I'm so interested in complying with the 250/10000 limit is because I always use FSAirlines to record my flights and I get an overspeed penalty if I exceed that limit.

 

Thanks so much all of you :-)

 

Bests,

[mgh 89]

 

 

it is all relative. There is no law, convention or treaty, national or international, that you will be in breach of, and no safety issue that you that you are explicitly at risk from by exceeding this 'request'.

 

That's pure misinformation.

[hopskip 253]

Thanks soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much for this thread. I had read here and there about heavy planes needing to climb above 250 knots below 10,000 feet. And I knew it had something to do with safety... But never really figured out why and, because that never was a problem for me before, I didn't search much about it.

 

But now the MD-11 was turning me crazy because I DID ENTERED a 250 knots climb restriction below 10.000 feet but the MD-11 ignored it over and over again and I was blaming myself for not programming the FMC correctly. I had follow the tutorial, read the FMS manual, check the forums...

 

I'm using TOPCAT for my performance calculations, so I knew I was doing things "more or less" properly. I always take off within the weight limits, vertical speeds are OK... but the FMC always sets a climb speed of between 260 and 270 knots even though I manually set a 250/10000 limit. Now I now why MD-11 ignores that limit. It simply can't fly at that "low" speed with clean wings.

 

I do all my cargo flights with a TOW well over 250,000 kilos (550,000 lbs), so that's the reason why MD-11 is always ignoring my climb restrictions. In my next flight I'll try a "lighter" take-off to check if the 250/10000 is then possible.

 

By the way... I have to say that the reason why I'm so interested in complying with the 250/10000 limit is because I always use FSAirlines to record my flights and I get an overspeed penalty if I exceed that limit.

 

Thanks so much all of you :-)

 

Bests,

another Virtual Airline Sim-ism...

 

Does FSAirlines allow you to "Request higher speed" below 10,000ft?

 

They can ask for this in the real world too (to avoid leaving flap out till 10,000ft on the climb) and although not guaranteed (ie: Maintain 250kts or less due to traffic) it is possible (either by ATC responding "Cancel Speed restrictions" or by responding with a specific speed they can go, for instance maintain 270 knots or less to 10,000ft/waypoint location etc).

 

..

 

on a similar note, some airports have additional speed requirements like not less than 160kts till within x distance, or not more than 180kts below 3000ft etc.

 

Here's some for YMML Melbourne

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/pending/dap/MMLNA03-129.pdf