There is no law, convention or treaty, national or international, that you will be in breach of, and no safety issue that you that you are explicitly at risk from by exceeding this 'request'. It is a generally accepted standard through out the world, and while some locations take it more seriously then others, safety of flight ALWAYS comes first.

Paul, If you read FAR 91.117, it states:

 

"(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

 

(b ) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b ) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

 

(c ) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

 

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

 

This may be found at http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-117-FAR.shtml.

I guess what Paul is trying to state is point b, as long as your minimum clean speed is above 250kts then you do not need to request anything.

Wow I have never seen a more extensive internet argument over something so small (250knots under 10000).

 

Popcorn is out, Imma get some more! 

I think two thing are being mixed up. In the decent it's normal (narrow or wide bodies) to be at 250 kt below 10000 because of seperation reasons. A heavy heavy in the climb is normally above 250 kt (270kt for example) to have a normal rate of climb. Above 10000 they accelerate to their cruise speed.

A guy I know flies on the 737 and even when they've got no speed restriction from ATC it's SOP to maintain 250 untill 10000 because of birds.

 

John

I guess what Paul is trying to state is point b, as long as your minimum clean speed is above 250kts then you do not need to request anything.

 

This is true in the United States.  I was going to add that myself, as several have alluded to asking for ATC permission.  In the United States this is not necessary.  You may hear it, but just like you hear people asking for clearance into Class D airspace, it's improper.

 

FAR 91.117d sets up the exemption (additionally, nowhere in 91.117 does it require reporting)

7110.65 5-7-2 Note 1 (ATC procedures) further accents this lack of reporting:

 

"A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 [parts b through d] without notification."

 

As a heavy aircraft would be operating under the 91.117d exemption, no report is necessary.

 

 

 

As I always point out:

Imagine having to work MEM Departure during FedEx departure pushes.  Life would be absolutely terrible...

"FedEx 10 heavy, Memphis departure, radar contact, climb and maintain 8000, speed restriction lifted."

"FedEx 143 heavy, Memphis departure, roger, radar contact, climb and maintain 7000, speed restriction cancelled."

"FedEx 22 heavy, Memphis departure, radar contact, climb and maintain 8000, speed restriction lifted."

"FedEx 137 heavy, ... speed restriction lifted."

"FedEx 240 heavy, ... speed restriction cancelled."

"FedEx 132 heavy, ... high speed approved."

 

Listen to the FedEx push on LiveATC and you'll hear none of that.

 

Why?

 

91.117d

I guess what Paul is trying to state is point b, as long as your minimum clean speed is above 250kts then you do not need to request anything.

 

What he actually said was

 

There is no law, convention or treaty, national or international, that you will be in breach of,

 

 

That is not the case. In the UK the Rules of the Air Regulations SI 2007 no 734 (which have legal force) state:

 

Speed limitations

21 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), an aircraft shall not fly below flight level 100 at a speed

which, according to its air speed indicator, is more than 250 knots.

 

 

They also require:

 

Compliance with air traffic control clearance and notified procedures

 

36 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), the commander of the aircraft shall fly in conformity with:

 

(a) the air traffic control clearance issued for the flight, as amended by any further

instructions given by an air traffic control unit; and, unless he is otherwise

authorised by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

 

( B) the instrument departure procedures notified in relation to the aerodrome of

departure; and...

 

 

The UK departure procedures notified generally have the limitation Maximum 250KIAS below FL100 unless otherwise authorised

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/734/introduction/made

Wow I have never seen a more extensive internet argument over something so small (250knots under 10000).

 

Popcorn is out, Imma get some more!

 

It is quite funny when you see people on here over complicate things. @Gerry, as someone who has flown up front countless times out of Heathrow & Gatwick on heavy aircraft I can assure it is a no brainier, they fly minimum clean speed or high speed.

 

This 250kt obsession has been around in the FS world for as long as I can remember. I guess it was products like FS passengers and a bunch of Virtual airlines that caused so much confusion to this day.

 

Anyway Gerry, I get what you are saying regarding Paul's post, it is very likely he doesn't fully understand the regulations.

 

 

@Gerry, as someone who has flown up front countless times out of Heathrow & Gatwick on heavy aircraft I can assure it is a no brainier, they fly minimum clean speed or high speed.

 

I never aid it wasn't possible:merely that it's incorrect to claim there are no legal restrictions.

 

The CAA has a  form on which to apply to exceed 250 kt.

 

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2162

That form is for general aviation.

It is quite funny when you see people on here over complicate things. @Gerry, as someone who has flown up front countless times out of Heathrow & Gatwick on heavy aircraft I can assure it is a no brainier, they fly minimum clean speed or high speed.

 

This 250kt obsession has been around in the FS world for as long as I can remember. I guess it was products like FS passengers and a bunch of Virtual airlines that caused so much confusion to this day.

 

Anyway Gerry, I get what you are saying regarding Paul's post, it is very likely he doesn't fully understand the regulations.

 

Definitely FSpassengers may have done it for people! :-P

That form is for general aviation.

 

 

So? It supports my point that it's covered by legislation.

For the UK, as I have said before.

 

Max 250 knots IAS below FL100 however the following exemptions apply

1.

flights in Class A and B airspace;

2.

IFR flights in Class C airspace;

3.

flights in Class C and D airspace when authorised by an ATC unit;

4.

test flights in accordance with specified conditions;

5.

aircraft taking part in flying displays when authorised by the CAA;

6.

aircraft subject to a written permission granted by the CAA;

7.

aircraft not subject to the ANO (e.g. military aircraft

 

Copied out of the MATS part 1 section 1 chapter 2 paragraph 2.5

 

 

 

For London TC all SIDs from LL, KK, SS; GW, LC, WU and BB have a limit of 250 IAS below FL100.

B747-400 series has a limit of 275 +/- 5 knots below Fl100.

 

Controllers may not cancel this restriction unless they have safety reasons for it, or the pilot reports they are unable to comply due to configuration.

 

 

That last sentence is a bit unclear because it doesn't say if a pilot is expected to remain "dirty" to be able to comply or if that means they are unable to maintain the restriction due to configuration. If you're really interested I can ask someone who has more in depth knowledge of TC than myself and find out.

It has already been covered, you do not have to be in a dirty configuration till 10000ft, you maintain your minimum clean speed. End of story...

It has already been covered, you do not have to be in a dirty configuration till 10000ft, you maintain your minimum clean speed. End of story...

Based on what regulation? I still base this on the UK since that is where I work but I have just looked through all the SIs and had a quick read through the LL textual data and I can find nothing to point to that. I can also find nothing that says you can exceed 250 knotsb below FL100 (except for the cases listed above) without an ATC permission to do so.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not convinced you are right either...

Based on personal experience jumpseating out of Gatwick & Heathrow longhaul countless times on my ID90 tickets.

 

Also working for a privately owned company that leases heavy jets & operate out of many European airports including Heathrow, and my own father flies the 777 and previously A330/340 out of Heathrow,Manchester and up till a few years ago Gatwick back to the Middle East.

 

Not sure what more you need? it seems the biggest problem with FS sites is many here become experts on reading documents but either have no official training or have zero real world operational experience.