It has already been covered, you do not have to be in a dirty configuration till 10000ft, you maintain your minimum clean speed. End of story...

 

This is correct, heavy aircraft will have these speeds built into the climb schedule. For example, when I flew DC10s, speed below 10,000 was 250 or min maneuver which ever highest. I have never had to request airspeed permission because of aircraft type(heavy). As a heavy type, it is implied that you may be above 250kts.

 

Based on what regulation? I still base this on the UK since that is where I work but I have just looked through all the SIs and had a quick read through the LL textual data and I can find nothing to point to that. I can also find nothing that says you can exceed 250 knotsb below FL100 (except for the cases listed above) without an ATC permission to do so.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not convinced you are right either...

 

Ok lets think of it this way. I have a min climb gradient of 500ft per nm up to 3000msl. Normal profile is to climb to accel height, select climb power, clean up and continue my en-route climb.

So do you believe that I'm required to go against the AOM and stay dirty? How would I ensure that I make my climb restriction? Min climb rates can be obstacle driven and I need to ensure I can meet them engine out. How can I ensure that when my data is based on leveling at accel height, accel, clean up and continue climbing eng out?  The only times I would stay configured(performance permitting) was during a tight turn in a SID. I would stay with takeoff flaps and select climb power 1500 above the field until completing the turn. This would keep me from spilling out since i would be limited to 15 degrees of bank until my clean min man.

 

These limitations ensure that no one speeds below 10,000 just because. Many times in the Mid East, controllers would say no speed restrictions below 10,000ft when cleared below. Sunday I  had a fuel stop at EINN and departure cleared me to FL200 with negative speed restrictions. In this case I was in a G550, so it makes sense that I needed permission. The red tape is at 300 below 10,000 so it didn't gain much.

The section of the Manual of Air Traffic Service Part 1 mentioned in Post #27 paraphrases the wording of of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 which have the force of law. Compliance with them isn't optional. T

 

he manual also explains the reason for the limit:
 

3.2 Airspace Speed Limit

3.2.1 The RoA require aircraft flying below FL100 to observe, with exceptions, a speed limit
of 250 kt IAS. Such a limit is an essential component of the 'see and avoid' principle
when separation is not established by ATC. This is in addition to other speed limits,
see below, which may be notified for a specific airspace.
.
.
.
3.3 Procedure speed limits

3.3.1 In certain cases, speed limits are published for specific ATC procedures for a number
of reasons. For example:

a) A speed limit of 250 kt is applied to published SID procedures to assist in the initial
provision of separation between successive departing aircraft ...

 

Chaper 12 of that Manual is quite clear:

 

1.5 Pilots will adhere to the speed (IAS or Mach Number) approved or assigned by ATC
and will request ATC approval before making any changes thereto. Pilots of aircraft
unable to maintain the approved or assigned speed (e.g. for aircraft performance
reasons) will inform ATC as soon as possible. In such circumstances, controllers shall
apply an alternative method to establish or maintain the desired separation/
deconfliction minima or spacing between the aircraft concerned.

In the UK aircraft can only fly at speeds allowed by law and with ATC permission. They cannot just decide what speed they chose.

 

Also Heathrow is in Class A airspace and Gatwick in Class D airspace  which are special cases

Im confused Gerry, what are trying to get at? That thousands of flight crew are breaking the law every day departing out of airfields each day because they are flying at clean speed.

 

Apologies if I am misunderstanding, I pretty much thought the point had made, fly clean speed, no need to request anything.

 

 

Im confused Gerry, what are trying to get at? That thousands of flight crew are breaking the law every day departing out of airfields each day because they are flying at clean speed.

 

Section 160(2) of the Air Navigation Order states it  is an offence to contravene, to permit the contravention of, or to fail to comply with, the Rules of the Air.  Section 21 of the Rules of the Air limits speeds below FL100 so any pilot who contravenes it has committed an offence.

 

You may be able to fly at clean speed  (if that's the same as minimum safe air speed) in the USA but can you provide any references relating to the UK.?

its like banging my head against a brick wall Please stop visiting airliners net or downloading documents and take a trip out into the real world.

 

Gerry, nothing personal mate, it's just that I often see you and Paul ( and a few others) arguing with many who have real world experience, it almost seems like you have read a document but not applied any common sense to how it is applied in the real world.

I just don't have the patience of someone like Kyle anymore.

I'm pretty sure when Concorde used to fly out of UK airspace ATC would give it a no speed restrictions under 10k. I also can't see why they wouldn't let a heavy aircraft fly over 250Knots if it was the safest thing for the aircraft.

All the EGLL SIDs state "Maximum 250KIAS below FL100 unless otherwise authorised", except for Midhust SID which is "Maximum 250KIAS en-route. MAY VOR at 220KIAS or less." [My emphasis]

 

AD 2.EGLL-1 includes:

 

6   Departure Procedures

 

(a)   Standard Instrument Departure (SID) procedures for aircraft departing from London Heathrow Airport are detailed at AD
2-EGLL-6-1 to 6-7 and incorporate the Noise Preferential Routes (NPRs) detailed in AD 2.21.

 

( B)   Departure Speed Restriction: In order to optimise the departure flow and assist in the separation between successive
departing aircraft a speed limit of 250 kt IAS below FL 100 is applicable until removed by ATC. ATC may remove the
speed restriction by using the phrase ‘No ATC Speed Restriction’. Pilots are reminded that this phrase does not
relieve the pilot of the responsibility to adhere to the ground track of the Noise Preferential Route, which may
require a speed/power limitation.

 

©   If for any reason pilots are unable to comply with the 250 kt IAS speed restriction the pilot should immediately advise ATC
and state the minimum speed acceptable. If a pilot anticipates before departure that they will be unable to comply with
the speed restriction, they should inform ATC when requesting start-up clearance, stating the minimum speed
acceptable. In this case the pilot will be informed before take-off of any higher speed limitation.

 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-04DBDF67BB8714BA18C9C36D50D1F5DC/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en_2013-06-27.pdf

 

Pilots don't just fly whatever speed they want. They have to request and be given it by ATC,

Well I flew the KC10A for 10 years and the DC-10-30 for 3 years with 4500 hours in the aircraft. At max gross, clean min maneuver is 293 kts. I've flown complete around the world flights 5 times in the type. I have flown in every type of airspace imaginable in this aircraft. We routinely takeoff at weights with min man speeds that exceeds 250 kts(440,000=252KTS=4,000 over max landing). I've been at 350kts below 10,000 during re-join on formation flights. I've flown this plane in every region except the arctic and ant-arctic. I've talked to every type of ATC from clear english speaking types to the look at the other pilot because I can't understand a word he said type. Never, NEVER, EVER-EVER  have I been questioned/violated because I was above 250kts in 13 years of flying the DC10. No request for my name, phone number, side number, or a phone call. The only questioned I've received from ATC while above 250kts was-" If the lead aircraft levels at 500ft above transition altitude and the rest are below transition, what altimeter setting would you use?". That's all I've been asked by ATC.

 

On another note, I was training a guy from the right seat in a G3. It doesn't have auto-throttles and the aircraft was quickly approaching 260 as he leveled off. Just as I was pointing out the speed the controller asked "what's your indicated airspeed?". This was his way of saying that I'm a little faster than everyone else. I replied with "ah 250, I'll try the other CADC".

 

Here's the thing with regs that I learned as a young aircraft commander in the military. 1. You have to approach them with common sense though common sense isn't so common any more. 2. You have to read regs like a lawyer. ATC regs govern the speed below 10,000ft. 91.117d intersects part 25 performance of the FAR. Part 25 performance governs the certification of transport category aircraft. Part 25 is a good read for those looking to understand the why of aircraft departure procedures and performance.

 

Either way this topic will continue to pop up and the reg lawyers will continue to argue what you can't do. But, I smile because I know how it's really done because I've been there and done that and continue too.

Maybe I missed it, but in the FPLN page:

 

* LEFT LSKs takes you to the LATERAL REVISION page

 

* RIGHT LSKs take you to the VERTICAL REVISION page

 

You want the VERTICAL REVISION page. It is also available via another page, but I forget where (need to look). Try looking in REF.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

All the EGLL SIDs state "Maximum 250KIAS below FL100 unless otherwise authorised", except for Midhust SID which is "Maximum 250KIAS en-route. MAY VOR at 220KIAS or less." [My emphasis]

 

AD 2.EGLL-1 includes:

 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-04DBDF67BB8714BA18C9C36D50D1F5DC/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en_2013-06-27.pdf

 

Pilots don't just fly whatever speed they want. They have to request and be given it by ATC,

Once again sir, approach with common sense. you are posting departure procedures instead of the general flight rule. Different airports may have departure restrictions because of a need. It's our responsibility to check airports and notams for these type of operating procedures. This is part of flight planning. In this airport specific scenario, the pilot will inform ATC that he is unable so that ATC can adjust accordingly with traffic congestion. Your post also explains why the restriction exists in detail. Another scenario is a SID with a 180kts restriction as it turn you away from mountains. Of course I'm not going to clean up and exceed the restriction. If V2 plus 10 exceeds 180kts, I won't be flying this SID. This I would know before getting there. Possibly I would have to restrict my weight or plan a fuel stop. Basic common sense.

Based on personal experience jumpseating out of Gatwick & Heathrow longhaul countless times on my ID90 tickets.

 

Also working for a privately owned company that leases heavy jets & operate out of many European airports including Heathrow, and my own father flies the 777 and previously A330/340 out of Heathrow,Manchester and up till a few years ago Gatwick back to the Middle East.

 

Not sure what more you need? it seems the biggest problem with FS sites is many here become experts on reading documents but either have no official training or have zero real world operational experience.

What I'm after is a document stating that you can fly more than 250 knots without ATC permission below FL100 except for the cases I listed earlier.

 

 

As for the "get out in the real world" I work with ATC in the real world, not in LTC but in the same company and I have several instructors that do. In fact today I had a run as part of my approach course with a valid EGLL approach controller.

 

 

Once again; I'm not saying you have to be wrong, but I have linked several documents saying that you may not exceed 250 knots below FL100 without ATC permission. Before I change my view and agree with you that this is allowed, I want to see something that proves it.

 

 

This is correct, heavy aircraft will have these speeds built into the climb schedule. For example, when I flew DC10s, speed below 10,000 was 250 or min maneuver which ever highest. I have never had to request airspeed permission because of aircraft type(heavy). As a heavy type, it is implied that you may be above 250kts.

 

 

Ok lets think of it this way. I have a min climb gradient of 500ft per nm up to 3000msl. Normal profile is to climb to accel height, select climb power, clean up and continue my en-route climb.

So do you believe that I'm required to go against the AOM and stay dirty? How would I ensure that I make my climb restriction? Min climb rates can be obstacle driven and I need to ensure I can meet them engine out. How can I ensure that when my data is based on leveling at accel height, accel, clean up and continue climbing eng out? The only times I would stay configured(performance permitting) was during a tight turn in a SID. I would stay with takeoff flaps and select climb power 1500 above the field until completing the turn. This would keep me from spilling out since i would be limited to 15 degrees of bank until my clean min man.

 

These limitations ensure that no one speeds below 10,000 just because. Many times in the Mid East, controllers would say no speed restrictions below 10,000ft when cleared below. Sunday I had a fuel stop at EINN and departure cleared me to FL200 with negative speed restrictions. In this case I was in a G550, so it makes sense that I needed permission. The red tape is at 300 below 10,000 so it didn't gain much.

The difference here is the prior approval. I'm not saying it can never happen, I'm saying it requires ATC permission.

Call me crazy, but when you insert a SID in the FMS/FMC of a 737 or a MD11 you'll find a difference in both SID's regarding speed.<br />One is below 10000ft 250kt all the time (on the 737), on the MD11 only for a short (read light) flight. When crossing the ocean with a MD11 (so being heavy) you don't have that restriction. Usually it's around 270 kt. You have to change this in the FMC if you want to have it higher or lower.<br /><br />When you're cleared (on a 737) by ATC to climb without speed restriction (in EHAM a rare thing) you'll have to delete the 250 kt or dial the number in the MCP and use level change in stead of VNAV. I've never heard about this with a heavy.<br />When it would have been a regulation it would be 250 <10000ft all the time in your FMS/FMC or what ever you call it.<br /><br />

 

 

I just don't have the patience of someone like Kyle anymore.

 

haha - more like stubbornness.

 

 

 

What I'm after is a document stating that you can fly more than 250 knots without ATC permission below FL100 except for the cases I listed earlier.

 

You've posted a few that say "unless otherwise authorized."  Note that it does not specifically refer to ATC authorization.

 

Additionally, I ran across this in the UK ATC Directory:

Ch. 6.4 - Speed restriction

 

"A speed restriction of 250kt applies to non-military flights below FL 100 in all classes of airspace except Classes A and B. (It also applies to IFR flights in class C airspace, but none is currently planned in the UK)

Exemptions will be granted for test flights, exibitions of flying and to aircraft that cannot operate safely below this limit".

haha - more like stubbornness.

 

 

 

 

You've posted a few that say "unless otherwise authorized."  Note that it does not specifically refer to ATC authorization.

 

Additionally, I ran across this in the UK ATC Directory:

Ch. 6.4 - Speed restriction

 

"A speed restriction of 250kt applies to non-military flights below FL 100 in all classes of airspace except Classes A and B. (It also applies to IFR flights in class C airspace, but none is currently planned in the UK)

Exemptions will be granted for test flights, exibitions of flying and to aircraft that cannot operate safely below this limit".

True, but operating dirty is still operating safely, it's just not as fuel efficent. But certinly a CAA excemption would also allow you to fly over the 250 knot speed limit.

True, but operating dirty is still operating safely, it's just not as fuel efficent. But certinly a CAA excemption would also allow you to fly over the 250 knot speed limit.

 

True.  I recall this being the centerpoint of another discussion about the 250/10 issue.  To be honest, I don't think I found anything 100% conclusive, but in a manner similar to case versus written law, it seems the vaguery is made clearer by how the regulatory bodies enforce it.  In the US, at least, it seems that the FAA interpretation is clean speeds.