minimum maneuver speed or VLS (minimum selectable speed) gives you a 1.3 buffer above your stall speed. That speed isn't green dot on the bus or clean speed on Boeings, clean speed which is used real world on departures and also what we have been discussing is higher, it gives you max angle and is your optimum flaps up maneuveing speed.

 

Edit - I should add my comments regarding VLS are based on the A3xx since it is type specific

(DC10)Minimum maneuver speed is the minimum speed to exceed 15 degrees of bank. It protects up to 44 degrees bank. For takeoff, it is only given in the clean configuration. Slat retract and flap retract are similar giving up to 35 degrees of bank. Any time you are below any of these speeds, you are restricted to 15 degrees of bank or face the buffet and stall. On takeoff you clean up at these speeds as you accel to min man. You may delay flap retract while at flap retract speed momentarily in order to complete a needed turn but clean up must be done at wings level with 15 degrees of protection. On approach, min man are only given for clean, slats extended and flaps 22. flaps 22 are the design maneuvering flaps and are used for go-around or touch and goes. So slats usually come out passing 10,000ft. Flaps 22 are selected on approach vectors.  Min man is 1.5vs and is the DC10s min safe speed.

Can you provide links to those definitions - especially "minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation"

tracking, stanby

Just found this on our very own site.. Thanks Kyle, I was thinking something like this should be sticky... Perhaps in caps on the front page of Avsim

 

http://forum.avsim.net/tutorials/article/92-busting-the-250kt-speed-restriction/

minimum maneuver speed is aircraft specific and not defined by the government. I was trying to find my old training manual with the definition. Here is the clean up chart and procedures

Just found this on our very own site.. Thanks Kyle, I was thinking something like this should be sticky... Perhaps in caps on the front page of Avsim

 

http://forum.avsim.net/tutorials/article/92-busting-the-250kt-speed-restriction/

 

That has to be read in conjunction with

 

§ 91.123   Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

 

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

 

(b )  Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Glad you never made it into the left or right seat you sound like one of those check captains that are hell to fly with!

 

@Voyager, I received the email but will have to send it private unfortunately (they don't want it posted on a forum) Bottom line however, heavy jet captain replied, he said he was departing out of a US airfield once and was surprised when they where questioned about flying 270 knots on departure, he explained that they we're heavy and the controller replied that he could not authorise it within his airspace, the crew just continued the climb and put it down to the ATC guy being checked out so doing it 100% by the book.

 

First time they had experienced something like that. Once again people, in real life it is not about blindly following procedures, common sense fortunately is part of real world operations, just watch out if you have a check captain like mgh on your jumpseat!

 

 

Glad you never made it into the left or right seat you sound like one of those check captains that are hell to fly with!

 

 

 

Based on personal experience jumpseating out of Gatwick & Heathrow longhaul countless times on my ID90 tickets.

Also working for a privately owned company that leases heavy jets & operate out of many European airports including Heathrow, and my own father flies the 777 and previously A330/340 out of Heathrow,Manchester and up till a few years ago Gatwick back to the Middle East.

 

Are you a captain or  a pilot? I understand that an ID90 is a staff discount card - or am I wrong?

 

 

 

 I received the email but will have to send it private unfortunately (they don't want it posted on a forum)

 

So we'd know you were right! - if only we knew what you know but can't tell us .

Gerry, ID90/50 is staff, I'm sure you have been around here long enough to know that I am not a Captain or F/O.

 

It is not about being right Gerry, it is about common sense, you can post documents/regulations etc until you are blue in the face, myself and others here are trying to explain how it works in the 'real' world on a day to day basis. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I pretty much summed up what was in the email, I wouldn't feel right posting it here without getting full permission and frankly I felt silly asking the question in the first place since I knew the answer. Nothing cryptic in the email and I can pm it to you if you want.

Glad you never made it into the left or right seat you sound like one of those check captains that are hell to fly with!

 

@Voyager, I received the email but will have to send it private unfortunately (they don't want it posted on a forum) Bottom line however, heavy jet captain replied, he said he was departing out of a US airfield once and was surprised when they where questioned about flying 270 knots on departure, he explained that they we're heavy and the controller replied that he could not authorise it within his airspace, the crew just continued the climb and put it down to the ATC guy being checked out so doing it 100% by the book.

 

First time they had experienced something like that. Once again people, in real life it is not about blindly following procedures, common sense fortunately is part of real world operations, just watch out if you have a check captain like mgh on your jumpseat!

 

That's alright, if that's what he said I will take your word for it

 

I also got a reply from one of my friends who works in LTC and he said this:

 

"The speed restrictions on SIDs apply to all aircraft. You have to request higher speed, even those aircraft who can't fly clean at 250kts."

 

I think we can conclude that for the London TMA the 250 knots apply, but you may request higher if you need it. In other parts of the world different procedures apply, as Kyle has already showed us in the US you can exceed 250 knots without prior permission if needed.

 

 

I do agree with the common sense however the proceduers now seem to be a lot more strict than they have been. One of the reasons controllers are only allowed to lift the 250 knot restriction in the London TMA in special circumstances is because it reduces the risk of catch ups.

There is confusion about the relationship between the various regulations and rules in the real world.

 

The Federal Aviation Regulation 91.117 (USA) and the Rules of the Air Regulations Rule 20 Rule (UK) determine the maximum permissible speeds below 10000 ft. They don't authorise flight at that speed in controlled areas.

 

FAR 91.123 and Rule 36 require pilots not to deviate from (USA) and fly in conformity with  (UK) the ATC clearance they've accepted. This clearance may impose speeds lower than the maximum permissible.

 

For example, The Mayfield SID from Heathrow has a restriction "Maximum 250KIAS en-route, MAY VOR 220 or less". STARS are annotated "HOLDING SPEEDS Maximum Holding speed in the LTMA up to and including FL140 is 220KIAS. At FL150 and above standard ICAO holding speeds apply".

 

To ensure safety, compliance with these speeds is required just as much a compliance with the published height constraints is.

For example, The Mayfield SID from Heathrow has a restriction "Maximum 250KIAS en-route, MAY VOR 220 or less". STARS are annotated "HOLDING SPEEDS Maximum Holding speed in the LTMA up to and including FL140 is 220KIAS. At FL150 and above standard ICAO holding speeds apply".

 

I also want to contribute to that discussion, without actually having any knowledge on that subject. The aircraft I am flying are far away from reaching 150 knots, not even speaking of 250+.

 

I just want to point out, that it has been stated multiple times in this thread that such speed restrictions on a SID are a diffrent thing than generally flying 250 knots below 10000 feet.

 

The SID you provided as an example may require that 220 knots restriction for that tight turn right after the end of the runway towards the VOR.

As it has been pointed out several times, that is a diffrent thing than that general 250 knots below 10000 feet rule.

The SID you provided as an example may require that 220 knots restriction for that tight turn right after the end of the runway towards the VOR.

 

As it has been pointed out several times, that is a diffrent thing than that general 250 knots below 10000 feet rule.

The reason is that SID is only used to transfer aircraft from Heathrow to Gatwick and ends at a hold where the 220KIAS limit applies.

 

As I said the 250KIAS/10000ft rule is a general rule that sets the absolute maximum speed. The permitted maximum speed in controlled airspace may be set lower by ATC. Earlier confusion arose because that distinction wasn't understood. In controlled airspace aircraft comply with the clearance accepted - speed restrictions and all.

 

 

Surely, on an instrument departure procedure the responsibility for separation lies with the controller and so see and avoid is not the primary method of applying separation? I'm not going to profess to know the score as I'm neither a professional aviator nor controller; but from the cockpit DVD's I've watched I've never seen a request for a speed greater than 250, but I have seen it offered by ATC - whether this is a SOP based on aircraft type then I'm not qualified to say.

 

There is a concept called "dead right."  Yes, the separation responsibility may have been on the controller to not let your aircraft hit something, but in the case you're right, you may also be dead.  While the responsibility is on the controller, pilots are also called up on in Part 91 to maintain vigilance on their own.

 

Additionally, VFR-IFR separation outside of B and C airspace is essentially "don't let them hit" in the United States.  Again, no competent controller would push it to that, but it's always good to keep an eye out.

 

 

 

Thanks Kyle, I was thinking something like this should be sticky... Perhaps in caps on the front page of Avsim

 

You're welcome.

 

 

 

 

Okay, so, there are a few discussions here that I'd like to address:

1. Remember that there is a huge difference between "as it is written," and "as it is enforced."  The written rule has a grey area.  Trying to pin anyone down on that grey area isn't going to get you anywhere.  As it is written, there is a grey area to afford flexibility, and contrary to popular belief, aviation is a lot more flexible than most believe.  As that rule is enforced, however - in the United States - affords heavy aircraft the ability to climb out at a clean speed higher than 250 under 10.  In so doing, they aren't even breaking the written rule; rather, they are operating in the grey area that the FAA has yet to clarify.  It would be a natural assumption that their lack of effort to clarify this stems from their acceptance of the practice.
    
2. ATC instructions - provided they are more restrictive than the regulations - trump the regulations.  If ATC states "200 or less after departure," then you should comply with it to the extent possible.  If not, then this is where you must advise ATC that you are unable (no explanation required, but it would be very helpful).
   
   In practice it is not as common to issue speed restrictions for a few reasons.  One of those is that aircraft after departure are primarily divergent (in fact, many tower SOPs state that two aircraft are not to be departed to the same fix in succession, where this can be avoided.)  In fact, in my training (speaking from a RW perspective here), you lost points in the simulation if you issued a speed restriction.  Why?  Turn the slow leading aircraft out of the way after departure, and allow the trailing aircraft to climb on profile.  Divergent streams.  Approach is a completely separate ball game, which is where speed restrictions are more proper and necessary.
   
   So, Gerry, you are correct in that you must comply with ATC instructions, to include charted restrictions.  This is a separate discussion, however.  The blanket 250/10 rule is enforced as a separate matter.
    
3. The approved AFM or OpSpec is also in contention here.  If a particular operator has the procedure listed in their OpSpec that they will be at the minimum safe airspeed, which is defined as the clean speed, then they would be fine.  This would fall under the 91.117a exemption ("nless otherwise authorized by the Administrator.")