This one should be pretty straight forward for Airbus as - "A350 in its technology is kind of like a smaller A380,” says Bob Lange, Airbus VP of marketing.

 

 

 

Not like they are reinventing the wheel with this one. The biggest challenge is increasing production times if anything.

 

I'd be very interested to hear whether the VP of Engineering agrees with those statements. From the A380 to the A350 is probably a smaller jump in technology than from the B777 to the B787, but to say the A350 is just a smaller A380 is not true. There are a lot of new components on the A350 that have not been made from composites before (at least on an Airbus), and composite manufacturing can bring some pretty huge challenges.

I'd be very interested to hear whether the VP of Engineering agrees with those statements. From the A380 to the A350 is probably a smaller jump in technology than from the B777 to the B787, but to say the A350 is just a smaller A380 is not true. There are a lot of new components on the A350 that have not been made from composites before (at least on an Airbus), and composite manufacturing can bring some pretty huge challenges.

 

The A380 uses 20% composites. The A350 will increase to 53% composites but to be honest, using Composites in Aviation isn't pioneering any more. A lot has been learned already in both civil and military applications

 

And of course their was my all time favourite composite aircraft, Beechcraft Starcraft that goes all the way back to 1983 with it's first flight, some nice innovations on this one:

Too bad that one was discontinued....

 

The A380 uses 20% composites. The A350 will increase to 53% composites but to be honest, using Composites in Aviation isn't pioneering any more. A lot has been learned already in both civil and military applications

 

And of course their was my all time favourite composite aircraft, Beechcraft Starcraft that goes all the way back to 1983 with it's first flight, some nice innovations on this one:

Too bad that one was discontinued....

 

And when it's no longer considered perfectly normal that every single part that comes out of some composite production processes has to be reworked before it's acceptable, using composites won't be pioneering.

Composites have been used in aerospace for a long time as you point out, but never on the same scale as in the Dreamliner and the A350. Although the Starship (and the lesser known Extra 400) and some gliders are completely composite, that doesn't mean that it's trivial to produce something on the scale of the Dreamliner fuselage barrel or the A350 wing covers. A lot may have been learned, but there's still an awful lot more that hasn't been yet (which is a good thing, otherwise I and my colleagues would be out of a job ).

And when it's no longer considered perfectly normal that every single part that comes out of some composite production processes has to be reworked before it's acceptable, using composites won't be pioneering.

 

Before we start talking in circles, I haven't heard that Composites was holding up the A350, and right now they are already past that point in the process any ways as they are already assembling the first aircraft as we speak.

 

Composites used in aircraft have always come from suppliers and not made by the Aircraft manufacturer, so the process is between Airbus' Quality Department to certify those parts for production from the supplier. That process is very straight forward and nothing pioneering about it any more. Either it passes or it fails. If it fails it goes back to the Suppliers to make changes.

 

Obviously the Quality Department at Airbus approved the panels made by Spirit AeroSystems over in America....Looks like a good job and relationship if you ask me.

 

<br />(which is a good thing, otherwise I and my colleagues would be out of a job ). <br />

 

I didn't realize....Where are you at???

 

I used to work as a Manufacturing Engineer and had experience with Boeing and Cessna in the past. Had a lot of good years back then

 

Cheers

It's been twenty something years since I've worked with aircraft materials but even back then composite components were fairly common place in aircraft, though on a smaller scale with mainly only smaller parts such as ailerons and engine cowling etc. being manufactured with fiber glass honeycomb and with aramids . So the technology isn't totally new,just being applied on a larger scale and refined.

 

IIRC, the 767 uses a fair bit of composite materials too, and that's been around since the early 80's...

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

Before we start talking in circles, I haven't heard that Composites was holding up the A350, and right now they are already past that point in the process any ways as they are already assembling the first aircraft as we speak.

 

Composites used in aircraft have always come from suppliers and not made by the Aircraft manufacturer, so the process is between Airbus' Quality Department to certify those parts for production from the supplier. That process is very straight forward and nothing pioneering about it any more. Either it passes or it fails. If it fails it goes back to the Suppliers to make changes.

 

Obviously the Quality Department at Airbus approved the panels made by Spirit AeroSystems over on America....Looks like a good job and relationship if you ask me.

 

 

 

I didn't realize....Where are you at???

 

I used to work as a Manufacturing Engineer and had experience with Boeing and Cessna in the past. Had a lot of good years back then

 

Cheers

 

I'm doing a PhD on fatigue damage in adhesive bonds and composites at Delft University of Technology. Being involved in building actual planes must have been cool .

 

The point where we'll know whether composites are holding up the A350 is when they start on the full scale tests. That's when they discovered they had to add (titanium) reinforcement plates to a number of locations on the Dreamliner. There are also problems with composites that only show up during final assembly. Metals are far more forgiving when it comes to shimming or going for the 'everything fits with a hammer' approach. I think Boeing also has had some problems with their suppliers, those might also turn up for the A350 when they increase the rate for actual production. Building a prototype is not necessarily the same as building 10 a month.

 

You're right though that at the moment the use of composites doesn't seem to be holding up the A350. My main point is that 'oh we used some composites on the A380 so on the A350 it won't be any problem' is ignoring quite some significant engineering challenges. Like you and Ronan said composite parts have been around for a while, but scaling them up to entire fuselage and wing structures brings new problems to be solved.

 

Ronan is right, the 767 has quite some carbon-fibre composite on it. Notably the engine cowlings, which was quite funny when people pointed at the LOT incident last year and said 'imagine it had been a composite plane like the Dreamliner, the friction heat would have set the whole plane on fire!' Just about any plane with a weather radar will have a composite nosecone (usually fibre glass), I think that started in the 60s. The Mosquito could also be considered to be a composite plane, due to the use of plywood.

 

 

 

<br />I'm doing a PhD on fatigue damage in adhesive bonds and composites at Delft University of Technology.<br />

 

Awesome...And a very exciting time for you to study this area as these latest products are so innovative and haven't faced the test of time yet.

 

<br />I think Boeing also has had some problems with their suppliers, those might also turn up for the A350 when they increase the rate for actual production. Building a prototype is not necessarily the same as building 10 a month.<br />

 

It is the same (main) supplier really, Spirit AeroSystems are the ones behind both Boeing and Airbus at this point for majority of the components. They supply composites to both the 787 and the A350. For that company the A350 program would be after all of the R&D that they have done with the 787 already, so they already have the know-how, patents, approvals, etc....

 

So reality for Airbus is they are using the best supplier with the most experience in the world to supply for the A350 program, and things seem to be going really well for both companies.

 

If I was you I would look to work for these guys someday ( nudge nudge B) )

http://makeitfly.aer..._what_home.html

Yeah, Spirit do a lot of cool stuff. Not sure if I'd like to move to another continent, but I'll worry about it in four years time when I have my PhD. There's still plenty left on that picture that's not green though, so just because Spirit can deliver doesn't mean everyone else can too .

One word on the title, if you included the word A350 in it it would be more helpful!

 

Now to the topic--the A350!

 

Will it take any of the market share of Boeing's 777s?

<br />Will it take any of the market share of Boeing's 777s? <br />

 

I gave up looking at Airbus and Boeing as rivals a long time ago, reality is neither company can produce aircraft quick enough to meet the market demand.

 

More then enough room in this world for both companies, and they both share same suppliers so reality they are just assemblers that can't assemble quick enough.

Doesn't seem to have hurt the A320NEO and the 737Max.

Since the A350 is newer than the T7 I'd expect it to offer better performance, at least compared to some models in the T7 family (I'm not too familiar as to how they compare with respect to capacity and range). I think the big unknowns for how the pie is going to be split are the B787-10 and the 777-X. Boeing has expressed it's intention to build both at some point in the future, but hasn't officially launched the programs yet (AFAIK). Depending on what Boeing can promise for those programs and when they can be delivered airlines might go for the A350 or hang around a bit longer for a 781 / 77X.

I'm just looking forward to hearing a different engine at Irish airports instead of GE and their CF6's (EI A330's) and CFM56's (EI A320/321 and FR 738's). Every time I go spotting at Dublin or Shannon I almost feel like praying for a stray RR or PW powered aircraft to come Besides that, what is the story with the leading edge of the tail-fin? Its got a yellow strip it the pictures, is it some sort of re-inforcement? But it only covers about 1/2 of the leading edge. I have no idea!

I really hope that Aer Lingus puts them straight on the Shannon to Boston route, I'll definitely be one of the first to fly

Now to the topic--the A350!

 

Will it take any of the market share of Boeing's 777s?

I'd say the A350-1000 will do to the current 777 what the A330 did to the B767, the market will shrink quite rapidly for the current T7 once it's proven itself. It'll be up to Boeing and their 777-X to compete against the 350-1000, but it looks like they're getting off the mark fast enough this time around with their 777-X plans unlike with the B787 which it took them 18 years to bring out after the A330 was delivered.

 

 

I'm just looking forward to hearing a different engine at Irish airports instead of GE and their CF6's (EI A330's) and CFM56's (EI A320/321 and FR 738's). Every time I go spotting at Dublin or Shannon I almost feel like praying for a stray RR or PW powered aircraft to come Besides that, what is the story with the leading edge of the tail-fin? Its got a yellow strip it the pictures, is it some sort of re-inforcement? But it only covers about 1/2 of the leading edge. I have no idea!

I really hope that Aer Lingus puts them straight on the Shannon to Boston route, I'll definitely be one of the first to fly

I'd say that once the A321 NEO is delivered to us, you won't see any A330's or A350s at SNN, but 2 A321s doign a daily JFk and BOS route instead of the current set up. Also keep in mind that SNN can only support an A330-200 and just barely, all the A350s we're ordering are -900s, which are even bigger than our current A330-300, so that also leads me to believe they'll never be seen in SNN.

 

Regards,

Ró.

I'd say that once the A321 NEO is delivered to us, you won't see any A330's or A350s at SNN, but 2 A321s doign a daily JFk and BOS route instead of the current set up. Also keep in mind that SNN can only support an A330-200 and just barely, all the A350s we're ordering are -900s, which are even bigger than our current A330-300, so that also leads me to believe they'll never be seen in SNN.

 

Regards,

Ró.

 

I don't get it, Shannon's runway is longer than Dublin's. How can a -300 take off from Dublin and not Shannon?

I understand though that Shannon is definitely quieter, less of a demand there.

I had no idea that Aer Lingus were getting A320 NEO's, when was that announced?

I don't get it, Shannon's runway is longer than Dublin's. How can a -300 take off from Dublin and not Shannon?

I understand though that Shannon is definitely quieter, less of a demand there.

I had no idea that Aer Lingus were getting A320 NEO's, when was that announced?

Sorry, when I said support, I meant economically support, as opposed to physically support. There is not a chance we'd be able to fill a 360 seat A359 from SNN when currently, we struggle to fill a 275 seat A332. SNN has a very seasonal market, which is why we don't even do TA flights from there in the winter.

 

There's been no firm order for the A321NEO yet, but we're currently in the process of hiring a new fleet manager and I'd expect and order of new aircraft within the next 9-12 months. The A321Neo would be a perfect fit for SNN if it has the range to do JFK, so then I'd imagine there's be 2 A321NEOs based in SNN instead of the current single A330 only based there for summer.

 

Regards,

Ró.