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dhenriques

Need an answer from an FSX ATC issue guru please

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Hi; got a question needing some doctoring;

 

In FSX, from a saved flight starting on a ramp ATC starting point I have AI aircraft moving about with me as I'm taxiing out to the runway working ground control on 121.7. What's happening is that ATC has an aircraft some distance behind me on a long taxiway. I'm getting an ATC sound loop as ATC deal with that airplane. He is told to watch out for me on the taxiway, then to hold, then to watch out, then hold, etc...........on and on in an endless loop of instructions. It's as though ATC is on a stuck record :-)

 

Has anyone seen this issue before in FSX, possibly can expand on it a bit, and offer a suggestion that might reset ATC or solve the problem?

 

I don't know if rebuilding the FSX cfg file will fix this ????

 

Many thanks for any and all input on the issue.

 

Dudley Henriques

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Hi; got a question needing some doctoring;

 

In FSX, from a saved flight starting on a ramp ATC starting point I have AI aircraft moving about with me as I'm taxiing out to the runway working ground control on 121.7. What's happening is that ATC has an aircraft some distance behind me on a long taxiway. I'm getting an ATC sound loop as ATC deal with that airplane. He is told to watch out for me on the taxiway, then to hold, then to watch out, then hold, etc...........on and on in an endless loop of instructions. It's as though ATC is on a stuck record :-)

 

Has anyone seen this issue before in FSX, possibly can expand on it a bit, and offer a suggestion that might reset ATC or solve the problem?

 

I don't know if rebuilding the FSX cfg file will fix this ????

 

Many thanks for any and all input on the issue.

 

Dudley Henriques

 

Have seen it a couple of times with Native ATC VFR.

 

You may want to slew your aircraft just a little bit out of its current position and it will get the ATC out of the loop. Programming has its limits, and these sort of things are typical of computer behavior.

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This was an effort by Aces, in FSX to avoid AI in the rear from running into you when you stopped., like what happened in FS2004. They went a little too far though, as they now keep too far a distance away from you.


Thanks

Tom

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The design of the AFCAD (the airport taxiway layout in particular) will effect how bad this is, it depends on how many nodes (joints or elbows) there are in a taxiway, the more there are the more likely you are to hear ATC telling the aircraft to stop and start.

 

Think of the taxiways as being made up of varying lengths of model railway train track and each join between track pieces is called a "node". FS ATC is programmed to not allow more than one aircraft be in any one section of track at any time, when the users aircraft leaves that track section and crosses a node into the next tack piece that segment of track is now classed as clear and ATC tells any following aircraft it is safe to proceed into the next segment. If the following aircraft gets to the next node before the user aircraft gets to the next node then its told to stop again. The same is true for all aircraft, its just easier to explain using the user aircraft and a following AI aircraft as examples.

 

Here is what a section of a taxiway layout looks like in an AFCAD editor, the green lines are the taxi paths and the blue circles are nodes linking the section of track together so that they can go around corners and also to link them to other taxiways. The purple paths are for ground vehicles like fuel trucks etc.

 

taxiways_zps3cb2fd74.jpg


Cheers, Andy.

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The design of the AFCAD (the airport taxiway layout in particular) will effect how bad this is, it depends on how many nodes (joints or elbows) there are in a taxiway, the more there are the more likely you are to hear ATC telling the aircraft to stop and start.

 

Think of the taxiways as being made up of varying lengths of model railway train track and each join between track pieces is called a "node". FS ATC is programmed to not allow more than one aircraft be in any one section of track at any time, when the users aircraft leaves that track section and crosses a node into the next tack piece that segment of track is now classed as clear and ATC tells any following aircraft it is safe to proceed into the next segment. If the following aircraft gets to the next node before the user aircraft gets to the next node then its told to stop again. The same is true for all aircraft, its just easier to explain using the user aircraft and a following AI aircraft as examples.

 

Here is what a section of a taxiway layout looks like in an AFCAD editor, the green lines are the taxi paths and the blue circles are nodes linking the section of track together so that they can go around corners and also to link them to other taxiways. The purple paths are for ground vehicles like fuel trucks etc.

 

taxiways_zps3cb2fd74.jpg

Thanks Andy. Insight into the issue helps a lot in understanding it.

It appears as though that AI aircraft (has to be 1/4 mile behind me on a common taxiway) might be stopped on a node spot causing a loop of continious commands from ATC ??? Just a wild guess on this.

Is there any way in FSX to create a flight and save it at an ATC trigger location on a ramp somewhere where you are guaranteed AI companionship on the ground or is all AI traffic in FSX created randomly.

I'd like to create a flight with AI traffic on the ground in another location to check if this anomaly repeats there. I need AI moving on the ground with me to check. So far I haven't been able to set up such a scenario.

 

DH

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Andy,

 

Excellent description of FSX's internal ATC process and its relationship with AFCADs. And your choice of model railroad segments of tracks to help understand the process is brilliant!

 

Best wishes for the New Year.

 

JJ


Jean-Jacques

CYND, Gatineau-Ottawa Executive Airport, Gatineau, Quebec, Canada

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You can't save any type of traffic movement with default saves Dudley, they all start at stands and defined parts in the traffic pattern, and those which are spawned in the air are usually out of visible range, this is why it always takes quite a few minutes before you see any aircraft land at an airport.

 

If there are big gaps between nodes then that too can have a detrimental effect on traffic movement and the held aircraft will have to wait for the traffic in front to travel a long way before it clears a section of track. Then there is the opposite situation where there are a lot of shorter lengths of track and the aircraft behind is traveling faster than the aircraft in front and the one behind may also be accelerating at a much faster unrealistic level, hence the frequent stops and starts. I'm sorry I'm not eloquent enough to put it in an better words than that :lol:

 

Best wishes to you and everyone else too JJ.


Cheers, Andy.

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FS ATC is programmed to not allow more than one aircraft be in any one section of track at any time,

 

This only applies between the user aircraft in front and AI to the rear. AI to AI can be back to back..As well as a user aircraft in the rear of AI, won't cause ATC to bark. This is because FSX can control all AI movement at once, where it doesn't know what sudden movements the user might make until he does it. This is what caused FS2004 AI to run into you, when it trailed right behind you.


Thanks

Tom

My Youtube Videos!

http://www.youtube.com/user/tf51d

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I get stopped and started quite a bit when AI are in front of me, same rules apply for everybody and no AI won't pile up on one another, not for the reason you think anyway. It's because of nodes that are too close together i.e. a few feet apart or even less sometimes. Going back to my railway analogy again, if there there is a clear piece of track between two nodes it is classed as clear and an aircraft can enter said piece of track, if there is a plane in the next piece of track the following craft must stop where ever it is on its current piece of track, once the next section is clear the craft is clear to move again.


Cheers, Andy.

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I get stopped and started quite a bit when AI are in front of me, same rules apply for everybody and no AI won't pile up on one another, not for the reason you think anyway. It's because of nodes that are too close together i.e. a few feet apart or even less sometimes. Going back to my railway analogy again, if there there is a clear piece of track between two nodes it is classed as clear and an aircraft can enter said piece of track, if there is a plane in the next piece of track the following craft must stop where ever it is on its current piece of track, once the next section is clear the craft is clear to move again.

 

Sorry I have to disagree with you on this! For example look at this video (I have plenty others) AI will keep their distance from you, but not each other. Also I never get stopped with AI in front of me unless they are crossing or opposing directions. Look at time stamp 2:35 which is a wing view replay, You will see 3 southwest 737's holding way behind me, but back to back with each other, As I enter the runway, all 3 come right up to the runway holding point.

 

 

As you can see the nodes on this taxiway, is pretty far apart, so if it worked as you say, there would be much more separation for each aircraft not just the the one behind the user aircraft.

 

 


Thanks

Tom

My Youtube Videos!

http://www.youtube.com/user/tf51d

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Just so we're not going astray on this, let me reiterate that my issue isn't the AI aircraft and what it's doing per se' but rather what appears to be an AUDIO ISSUE with ATC repeating over and over again in a non stop loop with no space between that the aircraft behind me should watch out for me, then hold, then watch out for me, than hold etc. The ATC written tape and audio just keeps repeating itself.

The AI aircraft itself seems to be holding fast about a 1/2 mile behind me.

Dudley Henriques

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Just so we're not going astray on this, let me reiterate that my issue isn't the AI aircraft and what it's doing per se' but rather what appears to be an AUDIO ISSUE with ATC repeating over and over again in a non stop loop with no space between that the aircraft behind me should watch out for me, then hold, then watch out for me, than hold etc. The ATC written tape and audio just keeps repeating itself.

The AI aircraft itself seems to be holding fast about a 1/2 mile behind me.

Dudley Henriques

 

No that's what happens, the AI aircraft behind you will get a hold, as you move further up, will get cleared, but as it gets within the separation point, it will get another hold and so on. As you say, it keeps a good distance behind (as you can see in the video I posted) so this happens quite often (Whether it's a node or 2 behind like Andy suggests, or a set distance as I believe) . I've learned to just ignore it. Try speeding up your taxi, if you are faster then the AI behind, you won't hear it as often. I usually taxi on straightaways about 20-25kts, (10 or less on turns)


Thanks

Tom

My Youtube Videos!

http://www.youtube.com/user/tf51d

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We're still not together guys :-))) I'm probably not explaining this right so hang in there with me just a bit longer :-))

 

Here's the exact picture;

I'm sitting STATIONARY at the run up area for runway 9 at KILG. I'm in the A2A civilian P51 Mustang.

Behind me about 1/2/ mile on taxiway K sits a Cessna Caravan.

I'm on 121.7 having not yet gone to 126.0 for a takeoff clearance. I'm listening and watching the ATC tape as ATC speaks to the STATIONARY Caravan in a single continious voice.

"Cessna so in so, use caution for the Mustang on the taxiway. Cessna so in so resume taxiing. Cessna so in so, use caution for the Mustang on the taxiway. Cessna so in so resume taxiing. There is NO HESITATION between these ATC instructions to the Cessna. He sits. They just keep these alternating instructions going out to him.

The Caravan doesn't move during all this. If I didn't change frequency to 126.0, this loop would continue on indifinately without stopping. I actually let it go on about 10 times watching it print out each line as ATC spoke.

Something is obviously stuck causing this audio loop. I'm just wondering if I can do anything to reset ATC back into a normal routine.

Don't worry if there isn't a quick answer to this as I understand it might be a complex issue. I just thought I'd throw it out here in the hope someone might have experienced this and found out what was causing it.

DH

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It's worth noting that the Flight Unlimited series did NOT suffer from this problem. I used FU3 for years with enhanced ATC, and I never encountered this annoying problem. The AI planes simply stopped if they were close to an aircraft ahead of them (as opposed to being within the same "node boundary"). It isn't the "stop/start/stop/start" that is the problem. It is the audio message.


Christopher Low

UK2000 Beta Tester

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