Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

tf51d

Cirrus Parachute system Failure

Recommended Posts

Not sure I have all the facts, but if TSRA in area, attitude indicator failed or failing, autopilot failing, in IMC, I'd have probably pulled the CAPS lever as well. The SR22 does have back up instruments, but they're electrically powered as well. Pretty unlikely that the back up instruments would fail also, but it has happened and that's one reason Cirrus put the CAPS system in their planes (the main reason had to do with spin recovery). I am a RW pilot with over 500 hours in SR22s and around 2,500 hours total and I can tell you that the SR22 is not the easiest plane to fly manually on instruments. It's very pitch sensitive, and I can't criticize a decision to engage the CAPS system in IMC with instruments failing.

I don't think you read through it but it was a classic Cirrus with a 6 pack.

 

If there was TS in the area then he really made a bad choice to go flying.


Chris Miller

Share this post


Link to post

 

 


If there was TS in the area then he really made a bad choice to go flying.

 

Why?  

Share this post


Link to post

Not sure that the older avionics set up (steam guages) would make much difference to me. I used to own a Bonanza and had to fly partial panel in IMC once when vacuum failed and it's a pretty demanding endeavor. Regardless of the type of backup system they can fail as well, and flying single pilot IMC without an autopilot and questionable instrumentation is pretty dicey in my opinion. Anyway, glad the guy got down OK.


Walter Berger

Share this post


Link to post

Why?  

Extreme turbulence that can rip an airplane apart might be the most obvious one.

 

We never took the Dash-8 or ATR around any storms. I don't know why you would even think of taking a little airplane with no radar around them.


Chris Miller

Share this post


Link to post

Extreme turbulence that can rip an airplane apart might be the most obvious one.

 

We never took the Dash-8 or ATR around any storms. I don't know why you would even think of taking a little airplane with no radar around them.

 

Define "around". ^_^


___________________________________________________________________________________

Zachary Waddell -- Caravan Driver --

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/zwaddell

Avsim ToS

Avsim Screenshot Rules

Share this post


Link to post

Extreme turbulence that can rip an airplane apart might be the most obvious one.

 

Wow... cause the last time I flew around t-storms... particularly on the backside... giving them a wide berth... never experienced anything but at the most - moderate turb / chop. Certainly didn't have my plane ripped apart.

 

 

 

We never took the Dash-8 or ATR around any storms. I don't know why you would even think of taking a little airplane with no radar around them

Only pick my way thru a line when visual and I have a good grasp of the "atmospherics" for that day and know where to run if needed.

 

Now... when I was a ppl and had no clue of wx systems or how thunderstorms "functioned"... yeah I was like how you describe... a "chance" of thunderstorms and I was likely to sit on the ground that day.

 

If I had an MFD displaying wx updates... every such and such minutes so I knew what kind of picture it was giving me... and again... I understood why the storms were kicking off.. yeah I'd go into IMC on the backside of a storm knowing I was giving it a wide berth... particularly if I was just climbing to the tops. I wouldn't stay IMC knowing there was a risk for further development and there was a chance I'd penetrate a cell.

 

I wouldn't try to go IMC and pick my way thru a line nor would I try to run in front of a line (relatively parallel). I also wouldn't try to scoot into an airport with approaching T-storms.

 

Understand the equipment, understand your abilities, get a good grip on the wx... and always have an out.

 

Btw, I have a tremendous amount of respect for thunderstorms and the damage they can do. But it's a healthy respect... not a panicky "oh boy I can't fly on a day with forecast or thunderstorms in the area". It's kind of like... I'll go to the zoo but I'll stay on the outside of the lion's cage.

Share this post


Link to post

If you haven't listened to a Dr. Strahle presentation on nexrad usage don't miss it-he gives the best presentation on its usage (but then he kinda came up with the first airborne nexrad system years ago before xm etc.).

http://www.aopa.org/asf/webinars/


Geofa

WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE-the best Flight Sim!

Share this post


Link to post

Pretty Poor (back-seat simmer) Analysis imo when you don't even know whether or not the SR22 has a vacuum system.

Until you get a REAL pilot's license with REAL training and REAL experience in IFR... including IFR flight in the vicinity of thunderstorms... preferably in a Cirrus SR22 and specific understanding of the CAPS system and training when to use it... you really have no business criticizing someone especially when you have no knowledge of the actual conditions the pilot was dealing with.

I have all the above, except the SR22 experience... and no freakin' way I'd criticize his decision. :rolleyes:

You're right, "PSolk" should have no opinion unless he was there.


Pete Dob

Share this post


Link to post

 

 


You're right, "PSolk" should have no opinion unless he was there.

 

I didn't say he shouldn't have an opinion Pete...

 

 

What I did say was this:
 
 

Until you get a REAL pilot's license with REAL training and REAL experience in IFR... including IFR flight in the vicinity of thunderstorms... preferably in a Cirrus SR22 and specific understanding of the CAPS system and training when to use it... you really have no business criticizing someone especially when you have no knowledge of the actual conditions the pilot was dealing with.
 

However, I do find experience with these things goes a long way towards "intelligent converse".
 
Btw... your little gibe does absolutely nothing "towards intelligent converse".
 
Either contribute something useful to the conversation or kindly butt out.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Well obviously in this case it was flyable - well because he flew it after the chute failure. Looking at the data from Flightaware, he was flying in a populated area called the Colony, NorthEast of Ft Worth. If he would have dropped there, he very well may have killed some people, and possibly himself. Now he did turn back to the airport which took him over a lake. (Lewisville Lake) If that was where he pulled the chute, then maybe he made the right decision. We'll have to wait for the NTSB report to see where he actually pulled it.

Loss of control of the aircraft in IMC could have also led to loss of life on the ground. I think there are too many unknowns to interpret the conditions and pilot's skill in this incident.


Pete Dob

Share this post


Link to post

Loss of control of the aircraft in IMC could have also led to loss of life on the ground. I think there are too many unknowns to interpret the conditions and pilot's skill in this incident.

 

If you read the SR-22 POH on the use of the CAPS system, it lists the conditions it should be used. None of them were partial instrument loss. Loss of control was listed, but he hadn't loss control yet. It also says the minimum decision height was 2000ft, He was at 8000Ft, so he had a little time to consider alternatives, even if he had loss control. Interesting the POH mentions as a consideration the safety of the pilot and aircraft occupants, but nowhere does it mention considering the danger of the people below!! If this happened to a regular plane without CAPS, the pilot would use his training and experience and probably do what this pilot ending up doing.

 


Thanks

Tom

My Youtube Videos!

http://www.youtube.com/user/tf51d

Share this post


Link to post

Not much more here, but I won't second guess the pilot.

 

NTSB Identification: CEN13IA285

14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation

Incident occurred Thursday, May 16, 2013 in Dallas, TX

Aircraft: CIRRUS SR22, registration: N715CD

Injuries: 1 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators used data provided by various sources and may not have traveled in support of this investigation to prepare this aircraft incident report.

 

On May 16, 2013, about 1120 central daylight time, a Cirrus Design Corp SR22, N715CD, airplane ballistic parachute was activated by the pilot during flight near Dallas, Texas. The parachute pack did not deploy and remained in it's compartment. The rocket was deployed and expended. The airplane received no damage. The private pilot was uninjured. The airplane was registered to Jeramiah 2911 Inc and operated by the pilot under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. Marginal visual flight rules conditions prevailed and the flight was operating on instrument rules flight plan for the flight that orginated from Addison Airport (ADS), Dallas, Texas, about 1055 and was destined for Independence Municipal Airport (IDP), Independence, Kansas. The flight returned to ADS and landed without further incident.

Share this post


Link to post

 

 


If you read the SR-22 POH on the use of the CAPS system, it lists the conditions it should be used. None of them were partial instrument loss. Loss of control was listed, but he hadn't loss control yet.

 

:Sigh:

Share this post


Link to post

The pilot's story, in his own words, from the COPA forum. He'd given permission to cross post it elsewhere, so assume it's okay to cross post again:

 

I was traveling by car yesterday trying to get to my family up in the Midwest. I am just now starting to catch up on the posts from yesterday. We want to thank you all for your posts, calls and emails of encouragement. You are truly an incredible group of people. I hope this email answers the questions that have been asked up to this posting.

 

I have XM in the plane it depicted what the flight aware picture shows a large cell off our right wing . It does not show that we were in hard IMC since take off at ADS. We flew into dark clouds and precipitation when we experienced the "P static" and the electrical failures.

 

I routinely pick up precipitation in clouds that is not depicted on my XW or when I call center with a Pirep they do not show it on their radar either. We were on the back side of a major storm cell. We were in solid IMC shortly after take off. Right before the failure we flew into a dark cloud and rain.

 

We got the Fluxgate excitation lost message, our Attitude Indicator ( Artificial Horizon) looked like a Picasso and failed, our auto pilot stopped working with no alarm sounding and our radio's were crackling and filled with static.The plane starting bouncing around I saw my situation deteriorating, I was fighting spacial disorientation and I made a decision to pull our chute. I called Center and declared an emergency. I throttled back and nosed up and pulled the handle at 125 or so KTS.

 

I taught a CDM last year and we discussed pulling at 120 to 125 to insure that you were under the 133 speed limit. Carol told me yesterday that the chute has deployed at 187 KTS. We also discussed the logic of killing your engine prior to knowing your chute has deployed successfully . I am thankful I did not kill the engine and have to deal with an engine restart.

 

When that did not work, I was dumfounded and in shock. I started praying and crying out to God for guidance. The guy that got me into flying, drilled into me to the acronym " FLTFP" I turned away from the weather using my compass and turn coordinator .I was scared that I might become disoriented fly into the giant cell off our right wing.

 

We flew for a while on a westerly heading. I had asked for Pireps earlier and did not know the tops. I knew Addison had 1200 foot overcast ceilings when I left. I was nauseous and sweating profusely and my heart was pumping in my chest. According to Fflight aware I flew for a while maintaining altitude and heading ( it seemed like seconds not minutes). I have had fantastic emergency training and I am proficient with IFR and practice for emergencies often. I used my altimeter and VSI and turn coordinator for reference

 

I was in fear of my life. Contrary to some of your popular belief I am not superman nor a super pilot . I was fighting vertigo and was having a hard time keeping it together. I felt if I went up I might stall and crash. I decided to nose it over and head for the 1200 feet of daylight below. I knew I would not stall going down and I would be out of the clouds sooner by making a rapid descent. No I did not have to change my undies as many of you have inquired.

 

The last time this happened , a few years was in IFR and in rain I was taking off with terrain on my left and tops at 5000 feet above. On that occasion I was taking off with 400 foot ceiling in rain so going back with FUBAR instruments was not an option. I chose to climb on top. I used my altimeter, VSI , Turn coordinator and compass .When on top my electrical items started working again I flew to my destination that was VFR . I put my plane in a Cirrus Service Center in and told them of the problems. My HSI was sent to Sandel and repaired. I learned yesterday that my recurring problem was caused by "P Static". I am going to have all my static dissapators (SP) checked . I had the plane in an avionics shop a few weeks ago for the Flux gate excitation message that had gone off in VFR. The shop informed me that there was a pin not pushed in. We now believe that it is static issue and we are seeking counsel from many of you on the best shop to fix the Pstatic issue that I now know is a problem on G1 Cirrus.

 

I called center on a crackling radio and said I was nosing it over and heading down. According to flight aware I did not exceed 166 KTS and it took 2 minutes with over 2800 feet per minute descent rate. It appears on flight aware that we held our heading OK. We came out at 800 AGL. We heard a faint crackled call from center. We asked for vectors to the nearest airport. We got a relay from a SW pilot with instructions to change to different frequency.

 

We fly that route twice a week. Scud running to Addison seemed smarter at the time than landing at Denton a little bit closer. We noticed our electrical system working after we left the clouds. We did not trust our electrical system so we chose to stay under the 800 foot ceiling base and fly back to Addison. The plane was flying ok but did not feel right. DFW approach asked us if we could intercept the ILS for 15 at some way point? This would have meant climbing up into the clouds. We politely declined reminding him of our situation and said we would stay under the clouds and fly a visual for 15.

 

When we were 4 out from Addison we asked tower if they could see anything sticking out of the top of our plane. They said they did dot see anything. The controller suggested I make a low pass and she would look at my plane for me. I politely ( OK maybe sarcasm, I don't recall but, would love to hear the recording if one of you knows how to get it) declined her offer and elected to land. Flying into Addison from the North has buildings right up to the airport. I now started thinking what if the rocket is like a dud firecracker that has a delayed reaction? I flew in high past the buildings and according to a person on the ground, greased the landing. Tower reported that I was dragging something behind the plane.

 

Tower asked if we needed any emergency services that had rolled out. We declined and taxied back to our Cirrus Service Center that had done our repack in 2012.

 

We look forward to finding out why our chute failed to deploy. Cirrus and the FAA spent all day yesterday working on it. We promised the FAA that we would not comment on their findings publicly until they gave us the green light. The FAA has been very helpful and taken all of my calls. NTSB did not invite me to the meeting yesterday. I have no problem with that. I am not an engineer nor am I a rocket scientist. I have heard that I could have shown up and pushed the issue. I was already in the car driving to see my family. The FAA promised not let anyone near my plane until they were there and they video taped the entire process. They promised to let me see the tapes and info etc. We took tons of pictures and video before the FAA got there so everything is well documented.

 

Dale and Pat at Cirrus have been fantastic through this entire process. They are handling this in an honorable manner . I look forward to flying in a Cirrus again soon.

 

I got back with my family last night. After we all shed a few tears they asked if I would ever fly a Cirrus again? I said why wouldn't I? My 19 year old son said because the chute failed . I asked him If he was in a car crash in our Mercedes (and not injured ) and by some fluke his airbag did not deploy would he stop driving? He said no. I then asked him from a safety standpoint after his air bags in theory did not deploy would you rather drive a car designed with safety features from the 1950's and 60's or a car certified in 2001 with air bags even though there is a slight chance the air bags might not work?

 

My Cirrus certified in 2001 is still a much safer airplane than any of the competitors that were certified in the 1950's and 1960's. We all need to practice emergency procedures and stay current. I am a Boy Scout Master and the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared" . The wonderful training I got from Carol Jenson, the Critical Decision Making (CDM) seminar I took at Migration and me preparing for and teaching the CDM last fall as well as flying a Cirrus all prepared me for last Thursdays positive outcome.

 

I can say without reservation that I will continue to choose to fly a Cirrus (after the issues are resolved). Man made things fail like HSI's, Auto Pilots, Radio's, Parachutes, air bags etc.

 

Last Sunday I flew a soldier who was blown up in a road side bomb in Iraq from KS to Texas for a follow up operation for his burns. His wife (a first time flyer) teased me for praying out loud before the flight. She said it is sort of unnerving to hear the pilot praying before a flight. He had flown with me before and he told his wife "he always does that ". We loaned him a car for a month while he was recuperating in San Antonio. He called yesterday to tell me about a minor issue with the car. He thanked me for praying for him and his wife. He said Jessica commented that she felt a peace flying with me after the prayer. He asked me if I was back in Kansas. I told him I was driving there now in our Dallas car. He asked why I was driving and not flying and we told him about the incident and he started crying and thanking God.

 

As usual I prayed out loud by myself prior to take off on Thursday's flight. Before I go to the power on my console I thank God, the ultimate higher power for his promise of having angels encamped around us.

 

My faith is not in man or in things made by man. When I experienced all of the "things of this earth" (growing strangely dim) that failed me on Thursday, I turned to God and he saved me, he has never failed me. I am truly thankful to him be alive.

 

Tim Valentine

 

Share this post


Link to post

 

 


The pilot's story, in his own words, from the COPA forum. He'd given permission to cross post it elsewhere, so assume it's okay to cross post again:

 

I reckon it is OK too (missed his permission to repost part)... it is a good read and maybe some simmers here who are so critical can take a step back and say, "there but the Grace of God go I"... except who knows, if you were actually presented with such a situation, would have the presence of mind to act in a similar manner.

Share this post


Link to post
  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
  • Donation Goals

    AVSIM's 2020 Fundraising Goal

    Donate to our annual general fundraising goal. This donation keeps our doors open and providing you service 24 x 7 x 365. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. We reset this goal every new year for the following year's goal.


    22%
    $5,550.00 of $25,000.00 Donate Now
×
×
  • Create New...