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tf51d

Cirrus Parachute system Failure

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Some interesting stuff.... Hopefully most know who these guys are writing the articles? 

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-technique/instrument-flight-rules/left-seat-new-partial-panel

 

 

http://airfactsjournal.com/2012/05/dicks-blog-whats-wrong-with-cirrus-pilots/

 

 

 

Gotta love the line... "When everything is considered, the Cirrus record is what it is and will remain ever so unless some pretty drastic steps are taken. It can’t be more training or more safety features because those things are already there. The only thing that can actually lead to improvement is the mind-set of Cirrus pilots."


Jeff Trozzo

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there have been multiple cases in the the last century of military pilots of damaged bombers and fighters staying with their planes till the last moment or until death to ensure the safety of innocents on the ground below.. these often have posthumous awards for bravery.. and deservedly.. i dont think i need a technical knowledge of this civilian (joyride?) plane to recognize who is and isnt a true hero... heros simply put the lives of others above their own regardless of possible outcome. i had to comment here as the use of the term hero got me 'annoyed'

 

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2

 

 iagree.gif

You and me both! Hero really got under my skin.  

 

Some interesting stuff.... Hopefully most know who these guys are writing the articles? 

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-technique/instrument-flight-rules/left-seat-new-partial-panel

 

 

http://airfactsjournal.com/2012/05/dicks-blog-whats-wrong-with-cirrus-pilots/

 

 

 

Gotta love the line... "When everything is considered, the Cirrus record is what it is and will remain ever so unless some pretty drastic steps are taken. It can’t be more training or more safety features because those things are already there. The only thing that can actually lead to improvement is the mind-set of Cirrus pilots."

 

Couldn't agree with both of you more but then again I haven't been there so can't say... whip2.gif

 

 The fact I have been saying the same thing as these guys all along is irrelevant.  

I particularly like this:

It seems crazy now, but thousands of pilots were willing to fly in solid IMC with only a single dry vacuum pump to provide the air pressure to spin the two primary gyros — attitude and heading — in the instrument panel. If that pump failed while flying in the clouds, life itself was at great risk. The only escape was a pilot's ability to fly with only a partial panel to get the airplane out of the clouds and back to a runway.

Because the most important instrument — the attitude gyro — ceased to function when the vacuum pump failed, the turn coordinator or turn-and-bank indicator became the only available lifesaver. Either instrument contains a spinning gyro but can't determine airplane attitude — only that the airplane is turning. If a pilot can keep the airplane from turning, or turn it only on command, he is still in control.

Read more at http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-technique/instrument-flight-rules/left-seat-new-partial-panel#jQPtRmKo6LpfU4ek.99

 

 

Flyable vs Unflyable is largely a synonym of in control vs out of control in my book...  This Pilot was physically in control just not mentally in control of his aircraft.  He was able to maintain controlled flight and controlled landing even after resorting to this fingerscrossed.gif

 

 

Sorry Rob please leave yourself some hair pullhair.gif  growl.gif   Have some tea on me!  :Cuppa:


Have a Wonderful Day

-Paul Solk

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i dont think i need a technical knowledge of this civilian (joyride?) plane to recognize who is and isnt a true hero...

 

That pilot has been transporting at least one soldier to and from Texas (soldier lives in Kansas)... a soldier who was WIA in Iraq by an IED... transporting him and sometimes also bringing along the soldier's wife so he could get follow-up operations from burns received from the IED.

 

 

 

 

It seems crazy now, but thousands of pilots were willing to fly in solid IMC with only a single dry vacuum pump to provide the air pressure to spin the two primary gyros — attitude and heading — in the instrument panel. If that pump failed while flying in the clouds, life itself was at great risk.

 

Been there done that... so wot.

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Sorry this bothers you so much Rob. Look, I am a motorcyclist, I gave up my dreams of PPL after my medical issues years ago. As a motorcyclist we are a VERY close knit brotherhood as well. Typically a non rider criticising a rider results in the EXACT same response as your response when I criticised a fellow pilot but that does not mean a non biker may have some keen observations about something a biker does wrong. It does not mean other bikers can do no wrong, it does not mean I defend them blindly. It does mean they are subject to the same criticism as EVERYONE else in the world. Not all motorcyclists are on the same level and there are some real TOOLS out there riding around, just because you hold that piece of paper does not put you above criticism or commentary.

 

as a fellow rider I DO see some parallels with 'fair weather' and 'all weather riders'...but this not the place for such a discussion except have to say: new years eve 2010 in my local bar talking to a good friend who had listened to my m/c stories for some time told me he just that day purchased a brand new Harley and as hadnt ridden for 20 years asked if i could go along on some practice rides..i said sure ..he said cool he'll pick up the bike on new years day and next night in bar we'd arrange some rides (Daytona Beach).

Well..got to the bar the next night and everyone was somber...he'd approached a turn on a 25mph local road a little fast and appeared to have locked his brakes from the skid marks on the road....

when a human gets into or onto a powerful machine ONLY experience and study can really be lifesavers...relying solely on manufacture's claims of 'safety extras' is a dangerous route to take..one reason why my bikes have never had or never will have ABS...but thats just me wanting to know the bike will do what i tell it in a crisis...i prefer expensive tires to expensive repairs and hospital bills/funeral expenses



 

 


That pilot has been transporting at least one soldier to and from Texas (soldier lives in Kansas)... a soldier who was WIA in Iraq by an IED... transporting him and sometimes also bringing along the soldier's wife so he could get follow-up operations from burns received from the IED.

 

transporting a hero doesn't 'make' you a hero..lack of in depth knowledge of the incident prevents me from commenting more here, except i do believe the majority of GA pilots buy and fly their planes because they love to fly not because they want to do their country a service..nothing wrong in that its defended in the Constitution and I would do the same if I had the money spare.


Russell Gough

Daytona Beach

FL

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I've experienced an ai failure in imc requiring a no gyro approach, and a complete static system failure in imc with an altimeter jumping +- 1000 ft.with a couple others problems thrown in at the same time.Thank god my primary instructor in that C-150 way back taught me to pretty much not use the artificial horizon and instead use the heading indicator as your bank indicator and the airspeed indicator as your pitch indicator.

 

Regardless how one would backseat quarterback things-a couple of things jump out at me.

 

It seems there are assumptions that one is 100% calm, dignified, and 100% in charge of their mental facilities when this happens. I know for myself, I spent the first 4-5 years of flying wondering/worrying how I would react in an emergency. Most I have known who have flown have  never had an emergency-maybe they are lucky or maybe I was lucky to have had a higher proportion to learn from . The best pilots I knew seemed to get real interested, sharpened facilities, and almost a thrill of the ultimate challenge in this situation. On the other side I've seen some pilots go into a complete disoriented panic over an open door or a lost comm. I always wondered would I be in control or would I crumble-and that is something you really can't predict until you have it happen to you. Luckily when I had mine I found I reacted somewhat in a good way-(except the first ai failure although maintaining aircraft control was assured I found I could not talk at the same time to atc-I kept trying to tell them what instrument had failed but somehow could not mouth the right word as I was too busy-they figured it out), but I would not short change anyone who because their brain is wired differently might react in a different manner. Despite all training there is just no way to know how it is going to go down till it happens.

 

Secondly-which has more destructive power? An aircraft falling in a rather stabilized direction/speed with a parachute deployed, or one in a graveyard spiral going red line out of control with a wing breaking off?

 

We would all like to think we would be Captain Sully in an emergency situation. I bet Sully wasn't even Sully-or what everyone likes to perceive.

 

Like the old aviation saying-any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. This was one they walked away from. In my book they did it right.

I agree Geofa,  ....he decided to take a 2,800 fpm emergency decent to get below the deck.  Unless he asked for a topographical 'fix'...whereby he knew the elevation of terrain as he decended, (he probably did....) he had no idea (unless that too was conveyed to him as a reading of cloud base...(probably did)...then pulling the pin on the chute proved to be IMO, an emotional fear-reaction, and that he did not go through other possibilities.  Whatever though, I don't believe he didn't know for a second what was below him...hills, mountains, skyscrapers, etc...and just descended blind on a wing and a prayer. If you think that you might be killing yourself by taking an action, I can't believe for an instant that someone would not put another's saving, and life ahead of their own folly, intent, or direction of action.

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transporting a hero doesn't 'make' you a hero..

 

Never said it did... the comment was wrt that "classy" "joyride" statement.

 

You guys whining about the "hero" comment... take it up with the individual that posted it.

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transporting a hero doesn't 'make' you a hero..

 

Never said it did... the comment was wrt that "classy" "joyride" statement.

 

.. agreed the word is contentious and i did give it some thought.. but let it stand for two admittedly flippant reasons

1. having considerable wealth should not exempt a pilot inexperienced for the flight intended from severe criticism any more it would than teens stealing a car.. we talking life and death of innocents here

2) the literal meaning of the word joyride implies a noncommercial FUN activity.. which i believe is implied by most GA flying. (i did refer to that premise in another post)

 

agreed without my explanation above you might excuse my use of that word as 'not classy'

 

 

 


Russell Gough

Daytona Beach

FL

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I work at a cirrus authorized service center, I will ask our mechanics about that one as I find it very difficult to believe.

 

As previously said, SR22's built prior to 2003 did not have an Avidyne Entegra PFD. In 2003 they started line installing them. There are a few 2001 and 2002's with the retrofit kits. The steam gauge SR22's did not have a factory installed backup AI. 

 

 

.hold on..the SR22 pilot below rendered himself unconscious yet the plane still landed (well to be accurate crashed without parachute) and he DIDNT die...pretty stable plane then for sure if you can bring it down asleep....

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20130410X32722&key=1

 

Way different situation but it helps when the autopilot hdg hold is set prior to lights out and the aircraft enters a gradual descent when the aircraft runs out of fuel. Just look at the distance from Las Vegas to the place of impact. A little far for 1 tank. 

 

 

BTW, aircraft manufacturers, especially those operating under GARA, purposefully create aircraft demonstrating positive stability when operated in the envelope. It makes flying easier/safer for the pilot and helps out during litigation.


John

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I read what the guy posted and it sounds interesting. This is an old G1 Cirrus. It has the standard six pack powered by vacuum. He was saying P-static was the issue but some how he lost his horizon which is vacuum powered.

 

I think what was needed was more training not a parachute.


Chris Miller

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So after all that, it does indeed look like the Cirrus in question was vacuum powered...     :rolleyes:


Have a Wonderful Day

-Paul Solk

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I work at a cirrus authorized service center, I will ask our mechanics about that one as I find it very difficult to believe.

Here is a photo of one of the earliest SR22 cockpits. As you can clearly see, there are no backup instruments:

avionics2020older20cirr.jpg

 


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Here is a photo of one of the earliest SR22 cockpits. As you can clearly see, there are no backup instruments:

avionics2020older20cirr.jpg

 

That's because there is no need for backup instruments in a six pack aircraft.

 

Vacuum system:

AI, DG/HSI

 

Electric:

Turn coordinator

 

Pitot Static:

Airspeed, altimeter and VSI

 

Passive:

Mag compass

 

Must have been a horrible storm to lose everything on the aircraft.

 

The other thing is he said he navigated around the storm using NEXRAD. The NTSB released a warning about using NEXRAD because of its delay with weather updates. http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/120620.html I know from many flights through fronts that NEXRAD should be used as a general picture which is nice to have, but if you are punching through you really should have a radar.


Chris Miller

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I guess the question of backup gauges was raised because the newer SR22s are glass panel equipped. I believe those newer aircraft would require some sort of backup instruments to be legal for IFR flight.

 

Since he was flying a steam-gauge aircraft the standard partial panel procedures that he must have been trained on ought to have been available to him (and apparently were since he landed safely).

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Not sure I have all the facts, but if TSRA in area, attitude indicator failed or failing, autopilot failing, in IMC, I'd have probably pulled the CAPS lever as well. The SR22 does have back up instruments, but they're electrically powered as well. Pretty unlikely that the back up instruments would fail also, but it has happened and that's one reason Cirrus put the CAPS system in their planes (the main reason had to do with spin recovery). I am a RW pilot with over 500 hours in SR22s and around 2,500 hours total and I can tell you that the SR22 is not the easiest plane to fly manually on instruments. It's very pitch sensitive, and I can't criticize a decision to engage the CAPS system in IMC with instruments failing.


Walter Berger

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